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A new beginning.

 
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ElSupremo
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Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 343
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:24 am    Post subject: A new beginning. Reply with quote

Greetings all Smile

A little over a year after the "Valentines Day Massacre" it's ended. For many of us anyway. For those that got comped again I guess they can continue on at TMF if they like. Speaking only for myself I can't fathom why they would. :?Many of us decided back then it was time to move on. I felt I owed it to the friends I'd made over the years there to try to do something to continue that friendship and give others the chance we had to learn from these wonderful people.

Many of those folks are with us today. Sadly, many are not. I've done just about everything in my power to preserve and improve our little corner of the web. I'll continue to do whatever I can to keep building on what we have here. Which I think is very very special. But like many of you I have only so much time available. In those hours I do what everyone else does. Work, save, take care of my family. What time is left is devoted to my passions of which this one. I have my doubts I can do this alone. Many of you have helped beyond my wildest dreams! If this continues I've no doubt we are going to be around a long long time and grow into something very special. A place where folks can come and discuss whatever subject they like without the distractions, fees or adds that are so profound elsewhere.

We'll need more of a commitment beyond what those have done so far in order to grow. A commitment from all of our members. A commitment to this site. A commitment to help it grow into what we all know it can. Any kind of help will be invaluable and no effort insignificant. Whether that be posting regularly, spreading the word where you can, linking to our site from elsewhere in order to help get search engine recognition, constructive suggestions such as John's "Newbies board", or even helping offset costs if possible.

I see the day in the not so distant future where thousands of members are enjoying and learning at our site. I want to be part of that dream. I've worked hard toward that end and will continue to do so. I hope everyone who visits this site will want to become part of our dream as well.

As for TMF? What can I say? May they live long and prosper. Despite their tactics I wish them no ill will. If they have lost their way we can pity them, but we won't dismiss them for they are the reason we are here today. Time to turn the page.

Well, I guess I'll get back to work on the index funds board FAQ. One of my projects for this three day weekend. OTHO I think I'll go to breakfast instead. I always work better on a full stomach. Wink

Take care,



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BenSolar
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 242
Location: Western NC

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: A new beginning. Reply with quote

ElSupremo wrote:
A little over a year after the "Valentines Day Massacre" it's ended. For many of us anyway. For those that got comped again I guess they can continue on at TMF if they like. Speaking only for myself I can't fathom why they would. Confused


Greetings ES, and others.

When this time approached last year, I chose to buy the '2 years for the price of 1' subscription at TMF. I wasn't comped at that time, but felt the 25$ was fair for two years of access to the boards there. At the time I still believed I could successfully pick stocks and beat the market, so I valued the individual stock and stock picking oriented boards there like the Berkshire board and the NPI board. These hold less and less interest for me.

I also make a bit of a hobby out of following progress in renewable/alternative energy commercialization. There are numerous boards at TMF where these are discussed, and I'd miss those. I get good use out of the real estate oriented boards there, too.

The REHP board over there is a love/hate thing for me. I wouldn't be here now if I hadn't immersed myself in the debate hocus inspired over there over the last 8 months. It's been fascinating, maddening, enlightening, and addictive.

I feel like this is much more of a home than TMF, but since I'm payed up through March '05 there, I'll continue to take advantage of the boards there. I probably should drop REHP from my favorites, though, as it's a big time sink to keep up and debate there, and I prefer the boards here. On the other hand, it is probably the best source for new members here Smile
Quote:
We'll need more of a commitment beyond what those have done so far in order to grow. A commitment from all of our members. A commitment to this site. A commitment to help it grow into what we all know it can. Any kind of help will be invaluable and no effort insignificant. Whether that be posting regularly, spreading the word where you can, linking to our site from elsewhere in order to help get search engine recognition, constructive suggestions such as John's "Newbies board", or even helping offset costs if possible.


I'm in. Very Happy

Thanks ES Exclamation

Ben



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ElSupremo
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Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 343
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Ben Smile
Quote:
I feel like this is much more of a home than TMF, but since I'm payed up through March '05 there, I'll continue to take advantage of the boards there.


Perhaps you could keep us updated on any major goings on over there? I'd be interested in what those folks are saying and what happens in the hocus vs. the world debate. Wink Kind of like a soap opera thingy. Cool



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BenSolar
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
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Location: Western NC

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElSupremo wrote:
Perhaps you could keep us updated on any major goings on over there? I'd be interested in what those folks are saying and what happens in the hocus vs. the world debate. Wink Kind of like a soap opera thingy. Cool


Greetings, ES Smile

Will do! It is quite the melodrama! Rolling EyesI'll keep an eye on things, but I do hope to spend less time on that board. Too much spinning of the wheels.

Ben



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raddr
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ES,

As you know, NFB is my home now and will stay that way as long as you are in charge. Very Happy You also know that my primary interest is the FIRE board and in just 2-3 months of existence it is already the best such board on the 'net IMHO.

As for the REHP, I can peek in but can't post there which I wouldn't do anyway. I'll let you know about anything interesting that might come up over there. Wink I can tell you that the NFB FIRE board is beginning to command a lot of respect from the more reasonable folks at the REHP.


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ElSupremo
Admin Board Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 343
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings raddr Smile
Quote:
As you know, NFB is my home now and will stay that way as long as you are in charge.


That's a special compliment coming from you. :oops:As you know you're one of those I would never be concerned about.
Quote:
I can tell you that the NFB FIRE board is beginning to command a lot of respect from the more reasonable folks at the REHP.


That's great but IMO it would take a blind man to overlook what's happening on the FIRE board. I'm not into FIRE that much but find myself spellbound by the threads over there. And much of that information spills over into all areas of personal finance anyway so it would behoove everyone to spend time on the FIRE board.



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JimWalter
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Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi es,

Count me with ben and raddr. NFB will be my home as long as you are in charge!


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hocus
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Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 435

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BenSolar:The REHP board over there is a love/hate thing for me. I wouldn't be here now if I hadn't immersed myself in the debate hocus inspired over there over the last 8 months. It's been fascinating, maddening, enlightening, and addictive.

ES:Perhaps you could keep us updated on any major goings on over there? I'd be interested in what those folks are saying and what happens in the hocus vs. the world debate. Kind of like a soap opera thingy.

BenSolar: Will do! It is quite the melodrama! I'll keep an eye on things, but I do hope to spend less time on that board. Too much spinning of the wheels.

raddr:I can tell you that the NFB FIRE board is beginning to command a lot of respect from the more reasonable folks at the REHP.

ES: It would take a blind man to overlook what's happening on the [NoFeeBoards.com] FIRE board. I'm not into FIRE that much but find myself spellbound by the threads.

I would like for people at this board to have a better understanding of why I have pursued The Great Debate in the face of such stubborn and forceful opposition. There are some important clues to the riddle implicit in the comments above. So I can't resist drawing attention to some of the implications.

Let's say that I had the idea for a post in mind that would be the best FIRE post ever written. Would it be a good use of my time to offer it today at this board, a place where it would be appreciated and where smart people would explore its ramifications? It would be a plus, but I don't think it would be the most effective use of my time, considering the alternatives. One, it would take me away from my book, a long-delayed project of major importance to me. Two, it would take me away from The Great Debate.

Almost everyone understands why the first matter is important to me, but my sense is that almost no one understands why I continue to pursue the latter one. It is because it doesn't matter to me what names they call me on the Motley Fool board. "What will matter three years from now?" is the question I always ask myself. No one is going to remember the names three years from now.

The single development from the year 2002 that will ultimately matter most to the development of the Retire Early movement (and that is what I perceive it to be, a growing movement with implications for all personal finance questions, as ES suggests in his comment above) is the formation of the NoFeeBoards.com FIRE board. I did not start that board. But I believe I played an important role in its growth.

How so? BenSolar tells the story in his post above. He is here partly because of what he saw in The Great Debate at the other board. He is not the only one. Every time a poster leaves that board for this one, the Retire Early movement becomes a little stronger. The growth of that movement is key to me achieving progress on my Life Project. So I am winning what I want to win from The Great Debate. No one else seems to see it. I don't care. I want to see the movement move forward, and what I am doing is helping it to do so. Why should I stop?

Am I saying here that I am deliberately trying to cause people to leave the Motley Fool board? No. Please do not ever think that that is my goal. I have a deep affection for that board, and will feel that affection for the remainder of my life. I would never do something with the aim of doing harm to that board.

It is the people on that board who deny Information Seekers use of the board for the purposes for which it was created that do it harm. I hold a mirror up to the board. I cause people to face the facts of what the board has become. The person holding up the mirror is not the cause of the problem. It is the behavior revealed in the mirror that is the problem.

raddr notes that responsible people over there are gaining respect for this board. Why are they even paying attention to what goes on at this board? Because the board they once used as a learning tool has squandered the loyalty they feel for it. That board is losing the respect of reasonable people. Because it has not responded to what is going on in a reasonable manner. The movement wants to live, and it is going to find a way to live, no matter how much some people over there huff and puff that things are fine just the way they are.

So long as the movement grows, I win. I am not losing The Great Debate, I am winning it. It looks like I am losing when all you consider are posts appearing on the Motley Fool board. But those posts have no ultimate significance. The test is the health of the movement. The movement is healthier today than it was on May 13, 2002. This is why I continue. Why quit when you are on a roll?

People need to be thinking about the possible end games. How can this thing resolve itself?

Option A is that every last REHP board community member interested in on-topic debate gives up on that board and comes over here. It seems to me that that's a good thing for everyone involved. I come over here and get to post at a place where on-topic posting is appreciated. This board gets more posters. Those at the REHP board who want the discussion limited to political chat are freed from having to hear anyone complain about there being too much off-topic posting. Is there anyone who is not well served by this resolution?

Option B is that the REHP board comes up with some means of protecting on-topic posters from smear campaigns, and that board is restored to health. Again, a good solution for all. There is no reason to think that allowing on-topic debate would rule out off-topic debate, so those who want political chat would still be happy. Those who want on-topic debate would be better off. And this board would gain access to that site's eyeball generation machine. The natural thing to do would be for the two communities to work together. Some would take up primary residence here (because it's free, for just one possible reason), some there, some would move back and forth from issue to issue. The bottom line is that this board would be better off if on-topic debate were permitted over there.

So anyone interested in the spread of FIRE knowledge should be happy that this thing continues, in my view. It's a plus-plus anyway you look at it. Many of the words used by those on the other side have been ugly and stupid ones, that is the turn-off. But you need to ignore what is happening on the surface, and focus on the long-term developments. Long-term growth of the Retire Early movement is the prize we want to keep our eyes on.

The one big downside of this debate that I am aware is the effect it has had on me personally. It has pulled me away from completion of my book, and completing that book is an important goal of the Life Project. I have developed a posting strategy that I believe will help in that regard, which I will describe in a post I tentatively plan to put up March 13. Outside of that issue, I don't see that anyone is worse off than he or she would have been had the debate never taken place. My personal thought is that everyone involved should just calm down about six notches.

BenSolar is right. The debate has been "fascinating, maddening, enlightening, addictive." All these things at once. We have learned some things. No one has been hurt in any serious way. As Nas90Skog rerminds us from time to time, it's a discussion board, for heaven's sake. Discussions are supposed to happen there. It is not reasonable to expect 100 percent agreement on all issues. So we discuss. We learn. We gradually move forward.

It's a soap opera, yes. But if it were only a soap opera, people would not keep coming back. The silliest claim in the entire debate (and that's saying something) is this idea that I have somehow forced the board to talk about this matter for nine months now. How did I come to possess this magic power to force an entire community to talk about what I want them to talk about? It's crazy. They talk about it because no one else on the board has put forward a more interesting on-topic idea in a long, long time.

The board hates the personal attacks. The board wants more on-topic debate. In that sense, they are with me. They don't like me pointing out the reason for the dearth of on-topic debate and for the ubiquity of personal attacks. In that sense, they are against me. The board is conflicted. It cannot stay that way forever. Someday, someway, the conflict will be brought to resolution.

Then we will either have two great FIRE boards working together or one great FIRE board, the one you get to by entering the letters "nofeeboards.com" into your internet address box. Does anyone have any major objection to either of these eventualities? If not, we should all sit back and enjoy the daily agonies of "As the Board Turns" with confidence that it all turns out just fine for the good guys in the final installment of the long-running series.


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Bookm
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Joined: 27 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should I stay or should I go. As most here know, I will not pay a fee to remain a poster at TMF. Maybe it's because there was no fee involved for the first 4 years there, it was a slap in the face to be asked to pay to stay. Last year I got comped, and remained there as most who received the same offer did, although some chose not to regardless. But I knew the day would come when my free ride would end.

On 2/11/03 TMF emailed me and gave me another free year there. I already knew I was going to be an active member at NFB, and I will continue as I have since ES got us rollin'. Of course I don't have a few hundred posts here yet, but I wouldn't even if I had stopped posting on TMF anyway. This is just my rate of participation at any place. Even for the free years at TMF, it took me almost 4 years to get to 1000 posts when that was the only place I visited. This will be the first place I visit when I go online.

But old habbits die hard. I am going to continue to post at TMF. I wanted everyone to know so I didn't appear as being sneaky, and that you were told by me and not by anyone else. I'm willing to say goodbye to all the friends at TMF if I am forced to pay. But I don't feel right blowing some people off if there's no obstacle like a fee standing in my way. There are still a lot of posters I enjoy talking with and writing to there that I just can't allow myself to ignore when it costs nothing to remain in contact with them.

I guess in a way what I've written appears shallow, that my friendship with some over there isn't worth the fee. But that's not how I view on the situation. If I weren't comped, I'd feel like in their eyes, my contribution to the site isn't worth them waiving the fee. I agree the way TMF comped posters at the 11th hour and made others believe they had to pay to stay when they may have been comped themselves. But I'm not staying there for TMF's benefit.

Additionally, I frequent boards there that also have nothing to do with investing. Hobbies I have, and also individual stocks I invest in. These issues will keep me at TMF until I have to pay to stay, or I lose interest in these hobbies and I chose to invest only in index funds.

So bottom line, this is my new home, I am committed to contributing to NFB and putting it on the map, as I have been doing since I joined. But TMF will still get visits from me. I hope this news doesn't create any bad feelings. I hope it's accepted in a similar fashion as hocus' similar intentions were. This has taken me since the 11th to write, so I could compose my thoughts.

Bookm



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ElSupremo
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Joined: 21 Nov 2002
Posts: 343
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Bookm Smile
Quote:
I hope this news doesn't create any bad feelings.


None here. Your doing more than your share Bookm and I thank you!



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