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karma
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Joined: 31 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:18 pm    Post subject: I don't understand Reply with quote

I know I haven't posted in a long time, but I have looked in from time to time. I was very sorry to see ataloss, raddr, wanderer, etc. leave and I do not really understand why things have turned out so badly.

I don't understand why it is OK for this hocus person to quote excessively from other sources that are surely copyrighted. Especially since he is quoting many different individuals who are not here to see what he is doing with their words. Besides, what do we here care what they say?

I don't understand why it is OK for hocus to say extremely spiteful things about these people, and yet other people are not allowed to even disagree with him without his getting nasty with them, too.

I really don't understand why hocus lit into ES when ES offered a compliment to JWR1945. It was so childish. ES has worked hard to build a nice board, and to have it destroyed because of one person's petty agenda would be a shame.

Things have really deteriorated, and I candidly don't think it is anybody but hocus's fault. I don't come to ES's board to act as a support group for someone acting out in such a malicious manner.

I will try to think of some interesting FIRE-related topics, but SWR is not likely to be one of them. I believe it is merely a rule of thumb and see no use in fine-tuning it past any relevance.

karma


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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I was very sorry to see ataloss, raddr, wanderer, etc. leave"

I was sorry to see them leave too, Karma. I think that just about everyone was.

"I do not really understand why things have turned out so badly.
"
I don't think that it is possible to make sense out of what has happened. It is a truly unbelievable story.

"I don't understand why it is OK for this hocus person to quote excessively from other sources that are surely copyrighted."

It is not my practice to quote extensively from posts. I often provide snippets, but that is all. There is one recent post in which I did quote large sections of material. That was a post that was a pure process discussion at which a variety of community viewpoints were offered on how to deal with the friction we experienced in discussing the realities of SWRs. On this one, I felt that it was important that I be very careful about representing all views fairly, so I elected to quote many of the comments in full rather than take the risk of being seen as having favored one point of view over another.

"I don't understand why it is OK for hocus to say extremely spiteful things about these people...."

I've never said anyting spiteful about any fellow poster. I never would do such a thing. That is exactly the sort of thing that I think hurts discussion boards. I oppose it across the board.

"I believe it is merely a rule of thumb and see no use in fine-tuning it past any relevance. "

A widrspread misunderstanding on this point has definitely been one of the causes of the friction. The SWR is a mathematical construct. It is USED as a rule of thumb after it is calculated. But the calculation is a mathematical calculation. There are rights and wrong answers when doing a mathematical calculation.

In any event, there has been no purpose served by the high levels of hostility we have seen in discussions of the SWR issue. If there are people who do not care to discuss SWRs, they should elect not to discuss them. There is no constuctive purpose served whatsoever by the hostility in posting that we have witnessed. It does no one any good.

I would like to see us try to work out some reasonable ground rules for dealing with this issue. We have been hurt badly by the fallout from it. We can't change the past, but we can try to learn from it. Also, if we learned how to deal with the SWR issue in a reasonable way, I believe that we could set an example for other board communities that are struggling with it.

It is hard for me to imagine that anyone believes that we have handled discussions of this issue well over the past 30 months. We are a bright and creative people. If we try to work out some reasonable ground rules in a spirit of good will, I am sure that we are capable of doing a lot better in the future than we have in the past. It is hard for me to imagine how anyone could argue that it is not worth a try.

The key is that we need to try to be reasonable and constructive. The aim should be to allow all segments of the community their fair say. If we do that, we will learn. If we learn, we will grow together. If we grow together, we will begin to feel a lot better not only about what has gone on before but about what is yet to come.

We need to get a few people to step forward in a spirit of good faith and try to lead us in a good direction. Seeing this post as a follow-up to some conversations that have been held over the past few days leads me to believe that now would be a great time to tackle this project.

We need to clear the air. I am certainly willing to do whatever I can do to get things going in the right direction if there are some from the other side of the table who are willing to sit down in a spirit of mutual respect and with a desire to achieve good things for all segments of the community.


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karma
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We need to get a few people to step forward in a spirit of good faith and try to lead us in a good direction.


I'll tell you what, hocus. If you stopped posting nasty stuff about people, it would really help. One would almost think you had no depth-nothing real to say. Just complaints about other people.

karma


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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'll tell you what, hocus. If you stopped posting nasty stuff about people, it would really help. One would almost think you had no depth-nothing real to say. Just complaints about other people. "

We could not possibly be more in agreement on the issue of posters not posting nasty stuff about other posters. Any proposal that you put forward to require that debate be civil will get my vote. Does knowing that help at all?

Now, it may be that by "nasty stuff" you mean me saying that intercst got the number wrong in the REHP study. If that is what you mean, then you need to say what it is that you would have me do given my circumstances. I researched the issue of SWRs in the mid-90s, before intercst even published his study. I obviously didn't do my research as some sort of effort to "get" him, right?

What would you have me do? Am I supposed to pretend that I do not know what the data actually says? Am I supposed to post dishonestly and watch people's retirements go bust as a result?

This is not a reasonable thing to ask a fellow poster to do. It is just not. We must permit honest and informed on-topic posting. No leader should ever put us in circumstances where this becomes a controversial question. There should be universal agreement on this point. If someone has published research and it is subsequently determined that the research is in error, it should be corrected. That is the only sensible way to go.

There is nothing "nasty" in saying that intercst got the number wrong in his study. This is a matter of objective fact. It is a matter of board business.

This is the issue that we need to come to terms with, whether it is indeed "nasty" to inform people that the historical data does not support the intercst claims. This is what we need to talk about because this is the question causing the friction. We need peopl to speak frankly on this point. If people really believe that we should never correct errors in studies, we need to hear why. We need to figure out if there are some ground rules that we can agree on.

My position is that we should not be impolite in correcting errors made by other posters. I was not the least bit impolite in pointing out the intercst errors. I was quite effusive in my praise of the contributions he had made. The same is true of JWR1945. We both wanted intercst to be part of the effort to develop a new SWR methodology. He flat-out refused.

If you had been in our shoes, Karma, what would you have done? Imagine for a moment that you believe that the SWR issue is terribly important, that it is an issue that can mean that the average aspiring early retiree can reach his goals years sooner. Both JWR1945 and me believe this. Imagine that when you first brought this issue to the attention of fellow community members, over 100 members praised you for the contribution and expressed gratitiude for the insights they picked up in just the early days of the discussions. And then imagine that someone tries to shut down the discussions for no good reason whatsoever and insists that from that point forward you and all others post dishonestly on the SWR question. Would you do it? Would you feel that you were doing right by your fellow community members to do it?

You have no beef with me, Karma, and I have no beef with you. I have no beef with raddr or ataloss or wanderer or BenSolar or PeteyPerson or any of the others either. And none of the others has any legitimate beef with either me or JWR1945 or any of the 100-plus community members who expressed a desire for honest and informed SWR discussions.

None of us should be tearing each other apart. It is senseless. We need to talk about the real problem. We can't solve the problem until we talk about it. So we need to talk straight talk. We don't want to be malicious, of course. But we very much need to talk straight. We have all paid far too high a price for not doing so thus far.


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karma
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Am I supposed to pretend that I do not know what the data actually says?


That would certainly be a start, because I don't think you know anything about data or statistics.

Intercst has a number. You don't like it. You like another number, which is ... ?

So what? Does that mean you need to drag in posts from board that we can't get to or say nasty stuff about ES?

I don't get it.

karma


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ElSupremo
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Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Karma Smile

Nice to hear from you Karma. I see you lurking from time to time. I don't think you should worry about this stuff. And I do appreciate your comments. If you would like a more in depth version of the whole thing send me a PM and I'll go into it. Otherwise we've been all through this and it's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. I don't have any problems with hocus or anyone else. In this environment you must agree to disagree. That's what I try to do.
Quote:
Things have really deteriorated

Actually IMO we just had the best week we've had in some time at NFB! Very Happy Things are really much better now and while there will always be confusion and disagreements on a message board, it's the nature of the beast. There are only a few folks that have not posted since this has happened and they are welcome back anytime. Let's focus on the positive stuff. Cool Of course you can go right ahead and state your opinion any old time you like. Wink



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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are encouraging words, ES. I see a great deal of common sense in that response.

I very much agree that "there will always be confusion and disagreements on a message board, it's the nature of the beast." And I also very much agree that we need to focus on the positive. If we accept that there will always be some confusion and disagreement and try to focus on the positive, I think that the rest will just fail into place in time.

I just want to put the concerns that I have put forward in recent days in a little bit of context. I want the SWR Research Group board to succeed. We need more posters for the board to have the vitality and diversity of viewpoint that it needs to thrive. I have been putting forward my thoughts as to how to make more people feel comfortable with posting at the board. If others have alternative ideas, I am of course open to hearing them.

My goal is to make the SWR board succeed and of course that helps the site as a whole to succeed. All of us are really working for the same goal. So I hope that all will take any suggestions that I put forward in the constructive spirit in which they are intended and that others will feel free to direct constructive suggestions to me from time to time in return.


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karma
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now, it may be that by "nasty stuff" you mean me saying that intercst got the number wrong ...


Stop right there. I mean you say nasty stuff about people. I don't care about numbers, because if you read what I said about SWR you would know I don't care about intercst's number. I don't care about your number, if you actually have one. You just plain say nasty stuff about people but get offended if they object.

By nasty stuff, I am referring to your actions and comments about other people. Nothing more. Yours. Just yours.

Accept responsibility for your actions for a change.

karma


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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"By nasty stuff, I am referring to your actions and comments about other people. Nothing more. Yours. Just yours. "

I have over 2500 posts to my credit and I have never once put forward a post that contained any sort of personal attack on another poster. I don't engage in ridicule. I don't engage in sarcasm. I am the lead voice in this community opposing that stuff. I have spoken in opposition to it over and over and over again.

If you are going to claim on this board that I have at some point in time put forward a "nasty" post, you incur an obligation to put forward specifics. Otherwise, you are engaging in smear tactics. You are the one posting"nasty," Karma. Cut it out now.


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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the text of a recent post to the Early Retirement Forum put up by "Telly."

"I have no problem with hocus posting here.  Now if he started chasing after every post that even mentioned "SWR" or "withdrawal" and posted a two page thesis within each of those posts, and on and on, I would get tired of it quickly and I would change my mind.  But if he disagrees with someones approach in a SWR-related topic, he could just insert a word or two with an up to date link to elsewhere where more info would be available.
 
"If hocus starts a new topic, like he did here, then at least to me this is his topic.  And if I didn't want to hear it, I would just move on to another post.  
I admit I get caught up in people's posts sometimes, when I should just skip it and move on.  We all probably do.
 
"At another retirement board, there seemed to be more hocus-baiting than hocus, or any other topic for that matter!  Now THAT will drive people away.  Myself included.
 
"An observation... I have never seen hocus show incivility.  No matter what.  Truly amazing.  Either he is really the output of an artificial intelligence program, or the man's on the way to becoming a saint! "

I have a lot more to say on this topic. I am going to restrain myself for now. I took a good bit of encouragment from the words that ES put forward last night, and if there is a hope that that post can bring us some peace, I want to see that hope realized.

But I am prepared to discuss this topic in depth if Karma or any others want to put up further trash-talk posts on this thread. There are a great number of posters like Telly in our community, posters who come to these boards not for trash talk but to engage in civil discussions of the topic of the boards--how to attain financial freedom. The work that I do is done for the benefit of those people (and for my own benefit too, of course). When you smear my repuation, you are not only doing harm to me. You are doing harm to the scores and scores of Tellies who come to this community seeking civil debate on a topic of great importance.

I ask again that you cut it out now, Karma. If you post trash aimed at blocking people from having reasoned discussions on SWRs, you are going to see an objection from me appear on the thread. We don't need more of this. We need to take it the other way, and I believe that ES was trying to take things the other way last night. My sense is that you like ES, so I ask that you please read his words from last night and ask yourself whether the sort of post that you followed with was the appropriate way to go given what he said.


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karma
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:47 pm    Post subject: Just wanted to see if this graphic thing works. Reply with quote



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kathyet
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How cute Karma


Love It..

Kathyet


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ataloss
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:37 pm    Post subject: karma's picture Reply with quote

LaughingLaughing



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