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ataloss
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is quite ironic that someone is booted off a website run by an intolerant swr guru and starts his own intolerant swr sub-board. Even if wrong, the first swr guru had an actual system rather than an imaginary "swr tool" Th has a good point that attention is what the troll is seeking and getting (but I have progressed from trying to reason with the troll Laughing)



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BenSolar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

th wrote:
Also, just to be clear, i'm not a peacemaker. I'm an asshole. Wink


LOL LaughingLaughing

Nice series of posts you've put up since rejoining NFB, th.



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th
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I'll keep trying.

Ataloss...consider my latest "gosh I can quote someone else with deep thoughts" sig from Dory's board:

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche"

Snap out of it man.

I dont even know you guys, so I cant make an impassioned call for you to stay. For all I know you're a bunch of jerks Wink I would like to find out for sure though, and I cant take on any other boards right now. In fact the wife has already told me I'll need to redirect my time to do some entropy reduction in the garage and our two spare bedrooms that currently look like the aftermath of a direct hit on a tool factory and an electronics store, respectively.

Can I entice you with more easy opportunities to give me a hard time about stuff?



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ElSupremo
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Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings th Smile
Quote:
For all I know you're a bunch of jerks I would like to find out for sure though, and I cant take on any other boards right now.

LOL! Laughing If you'd like to contact me offline we can discuss this. Wink



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hocus2004
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Joined: 10 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"That debate was started by you (at least in my experience): there's your credit."

Thank you, BenSolar. I much appreciate you saying that.

"You don't get credit for my hours of research and writing on the subject during which I convinced myself to lower my allocation of S&P 500. "

I do not.

"Yes, your posts had an influence on me, played an important role in my starting to research the subject."

That's what I do for a living. I put posts up on discussion boards aimed at getting people to look at things from angles from which they haven't looked at them before. I work it hard. I have a feeling of pride when I experience a particular success at it. The most influential post that I have ever put forward was the one that I put forward on May 13, 2002. I'm very proud of that post, more than I am of any "soft side" post that garnered over 100 recommendations.

"that is why I changed my allocation. Not because of a few posts on a message board from an anonymous member of the Motley Fool. Though those posts are back there in the causal chain somewhere. "

I do not ask that anyone take anything that I say on faith. I do not want the responsibility that would come with people doing that. Everyone should check out everything I say ten different ways.

In this case, I got it right. That's the point. I worked real hard to get it right before putting it up, lots of people challenged me on what I said, dismissed my claims and ridiculed my claims, and it turned out that I was right. The historical data says that I was right.

I do not ask that anyone throw a parade in my honor. What I want is for people to acknowledge that I got it right so that people thinking about looking into the workings of the tool will not get the impression that there is something wrong with it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It is a wonderful tool. I want every aspiring early retiree to at least check it out a little bit.

I did not develop this tool myself. You in particular played a big role, BenSolar. Raddr played an absolutely huge role. Wanderer played a very significant role. FoolMeOnce played a significant role. PeteyPerson played a role. There are lots of others.

It makes no sense for us to be at battle. We all want the same thing. Every blessed one of us. Including intercst.

We need to bring this thing to resolution. I don't mean to stop the discussions. The discussions of how to use the tool will be going on for years. We need to resolve the frictions. They do us all harm. We need to stop that stuff.

There is a process issue and a substance issue. The process issue is that we must send a strong signal to the entire community that minority rights are respected at these boards. When we do that, the movement will begin growing again instead of shrinking. The substance issue is that we must begin speaking accurately re what the historical data says.

There are several ways in which we can achieve both of those goals. We should be discussing what is the best way to do it rather than whether to do it. We already know that we must do it, so we need to get to the "what to do" question.

People have lost trust in their fellow community members. People think that, if they give an inch, they are going to be taken advantage of. I am not going to take advantage of anyone and JWR1945 is not going to take advantage of anyone. The problem we are experiencing is that, so long as this other stuff keeps appearing, we cannot even get off the dime. We need to try to talk seriously and reasonably and in good faith.

I have an idea of how this is going to end up. I'll put it forward at the right time. I need to hear that there is interest in the community in hearing a constructive proposal. The way that the community voices interest is by someone putting up a post offering words to that effect.

My goal is not going to be to blast people. To the contrary. My goal is going to be to heal the wounds. I am a realistic and practical person. I understand that the minority does not get to have its way on all details. The majority needs to understand that it does not get its way on all details either. If the majority will acknowledge that there is both a process issue and a substance issue here that need to be worked out, I am confident that we can pull it off to everyone's satisfaction.

You did good, BenSolar. You were the first one a long time ago to say the magic words "Knock off the funny business" when I was seeking that. And you were the first in this phase to get the ball rolling just a little in the direction of discussions of constructive resolution.

I'll wait and see what comes back at me. It won't take much to persude me to put a proposal on the table. All I need is the slightest encouragement.

I don't want to waste the opportunity this moment presents. The only reason I don't just go ahead and present the proposal without hearing a request for it is that I have tried lots of compromise proposals before and they were never taken seriously. I would like to see this one taken seriously.

The community gets to have input, obviously. I am one poster in a big community, that's all. What we need is an appreciation that one poster matters. There are certain rights that majorities have and there are certain rights that minorities have and those rights must be respected if things are to proceed smoothly.

I started out as a minority of one and I am now part of a minority of two. I understand that. You all need to accept that even a minority of one or two has rights that must be taken seriously.

I'll respond to whatever signals the community sends. I believe that we can take this in a direction that does good for all and causes harm to no one. We do it by trading sincere and reasoned posts with each other until we reach a point where we are all happy with the product. We do it by talking it out in a spirit of mutual respect. We do it as a community.

Think how good we will all feel about ourselves when we have actually pulled it off. I will book a flight and go visit Galeno and have that cold one we were talking about having together a while back.


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hocus2004
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Joined: 10 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Even if wrong, the first swr guru had an actual system rather than an imaginary "swr tool" "

That's a step in the right direction, ataloss.

This is not going to end with everyone giving the thumbs up to my approach and the thumbs down to the intercst approach. I guess I would like to see that happen in 10 years or so. It sure ain't gonna happen anytime real soon.

What we need to do is to set things up so that people have the opportunity to explore the pros and cons of both approaches. We don't want to smash one approach into the ground and we don't want to smash the other approach into the ground.

We have all sorts of viewpoints held by all sorts of posters. All posters need to feel free to express their viewpoints. All viewpoints must be subject to challenge. All viewpoints must be treated with the respect they have merited for themselves.

The rest is details, stuff we can figure out together by bouncing a few ideas back and forth.


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wanderer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That debate was started by you (at least in my experience): there's your credit.

Sorry, bensolar, but if you'll recall, after hocus linked to the standalone post 8 of a thread, yours truly went to the whole thread where I noted that the top post contained a reference from Bill Bernstein on the importance of valuation. Perhaps you've just heard it so... many... times... that hocus' claims appear to have validity.

Hocus' claims exceed his grasp yet again.



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wanderer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, BenSolar. I much appreciate you saying that.

Of course you do. Regrettably, it is untrue.

He's a real nowhere man... Really.



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wanderer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hocus -

It makes no sense for us to be at battle. We all want the same thing. Every blessed one of us. Including intercst.

Of course it does. It makes you the center of attention and lends creedence to claims of martyrdom on your part.



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BenSolar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wanderer wrote:
That debate was started by you (at least in my experience): there's your credit.

Sorry, bensolar, but if you'll recall, after hocus linked to the standalone post 8 of a thread, yours truly went to the whole thread where I noted that the top post contained a reference from Bill Bernstein on the importance of valuation. Perhaps you've just heard it so... many... times... that hocus' claims appear to have validity.


LOL, yes that was pretty funny, and I do recall that. However, I wasn't giving credit to hocus for originating the idea that valuation affects SWR or much less that valuation affects return, or even for necessarily being the first to broach the subject at the MF REHP board. I was just referring more specifically to the debate that hocus stirred up much later with his 7 points why 'traditional SWR' was flawed or whatever. One reason being the effect of valuation, which seemed reasonable to me, so I researched and argued that position and greatly improved my financial knowledge. I do give credit to hocus for stirring that debate on the TMF REHP board at that particular time that I got involved.

Funny how things go. Back then I thought I could be the peaceful mediator who could bring the arguing parties to a middle ground by explaining what hocus meant (or what I thought he meant) and showing research from established economists like Dr. Shiller that backed the postion. Confused At the same time I argued that some of the flaws that hocus identified were not problems that could be corrected, like somehow accounting for the fact that people tend to buy high and sell low, I mean, how do you model that! Take it to an extreme and you can simply say that most people will make such bad decisions that they'll never ever retire early. I never could have imagined the twists and turns since then.

At any rate, I didn't follow this train of thought in my earlier post, although it occured to me, because I'm trying to avoid getting all four limbs and my head stuck in the tarbaby this time around. Smile



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wanderer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At any rate, I didn't follow this train of thought in my earlier post, although it occured to me, because I'm trying to avoid getting all four limbs and my head stuck in the tarbaby this time around.

Too late! Wink

That's OK. Hocus' infrequent posting pledge seems to have been honored in the breach. Laughing

And I remember you trying to explain to EFOL (English as the First Language) folks who were confused by those 'the future is/is not differnet from the past posts'.



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BenSolar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wanderer wrote:
And I remember you trying to explain to EFOL (English as the First Language) folks who were confused by those 'the future is/is not differnet from the past posts'.

That episode helped make me realize the error of my ways. Wink



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KenM
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello ES
As your only comment is
Quote:
My recent decision is not one of them
and you have not denied that there is a direct link between generous donations to you and your decision to reinstate h^^^s then I can only assume that this is correct. While finding it disappointing, in the end I have no problems with a commercial decision like that and I respect it. What I was finding difficult to understand was the transition over a period of 6 weeks from your view ...
Quote:
And do we really miss the trolls?
... to welcoming the troll back.

So, please, when we see claims about minority rights etc etc, let's have no hypocrisy ..... money was paid - h^^^s is back Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes.

Consequently the moral standing of nfb is now changed ... therefore, please, no more sanctimonious bleatings that he can't help what he does because he's easily baited.



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KenM
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the feeling there may be an assumption by some that I've threatened to leave nfb. I left last year because of the overall troll situation but I made no threats prior to leaving. Quite rightly ES would obviously ignore pathetic threats like that - so I make no such threats this time either. If I decide to go - I'll just go.

In fact, if it's threats you want, I'm more likely to threaten to stay and carry on the way I am now for the next year.
How about two trolls at nfb??? LaughingLaughingLaughing
I can assure you I'd be very good at it - there was one period in my life (that I'm somewhat ashamed of) where I received training that's probably appropriate Evil or Very Mad



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KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
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KenM
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ES
Quote:
Well my disappointments exist on many levels ... The reaction I've received from many of those I've respected for years is (one of them).

From what I've seen it appears to me that many of your old friends feel not just 'disappointment' - they feel 'sold out' or 'betrayed'.



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KenM
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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Ken Smile
Quote:
As your only comment is

Well here are a few more...
Quote:
I can only assume that this is correct.

Which is all you are doing. Assuming. I have to wonder if you don't have anything better to do? Laughing
Quote:
... to welcoming the troll back.

I disagree with you on this troll thing. My definition of a troll is "B.A.P." Laughing
Quote:
So, please, when we see claims about minority rights etc etc, let's have no hypocrisy

LOL! Laughing Yes I agree there is hypocrisy here. But your looking in the wrong direction. Wink
Quote:
Consequently the moral standing of nfb is now changed

It's only temporary. I'll give you a chance to vent and settle down a little first. Rolling Eyes



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