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KenM
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Post by KenM » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:10 pm

Isn't this fun? :lol:
KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

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ataloss
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Post by ataloss » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:34 pm

probably I am the only one amused by hocus quoting altoflaco from tmf in his defense and including:
Instead of mocking him, however, perhaps we could just recognize that he is not well and leave him to tilt at windmills?

Why not remember instead that in his more lucid moments, hocus wrote persuasively on financial independence and early retirement?


ES please don't delete this- hocus has quoted it himself on his board :D
Have fun.

Ataloss

KenM
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Post by KenM » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:19 pm

hi PITA
Perhaps, in this single thread, KenM is striving to take over the title of Official NFB Master Baiter from its current holder.
I tend to think that wanderer, for all his good points, probably doesn't have the temperament to be a Master Baiter - in the way he reacts I'd suggest he's more of a baitee really :)... which is not a bad thing at all.

But what I'm looking for, PITA, is a Chief Apologist for my actions - to say that unfortunately, with my temperament and mental condition I can't help it because people bait me. Your name makes you an ideal choice ... I suppose you wouldn't like to volunteer. :)
KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

th
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Post by th » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:38 pm

The one problem with the many descriptions of "trollishness":

- not answering direct questions
- evasiveness
- providing "wrong" information that must be corrected
- write long posts
- go on endlessly without a point
- harm of the community

blah blah blah...

Pretty much applies at one time or another to almost every poster around. And I'd hate to consider myself the "right" person to correct the "wrong" information...must be a hearty feeling to be the one with all the "right" knowledge...

I've also never seen a troll take a community down. Once or twice I've seen the community take itself down by reacting and overreacting...
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche

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Post by KenM » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:09 pm

..... sorry, I'd forgotten, these days you need two Apologists - anyone want to volunteer to be a Subordinate Apologist for me? :lol:
KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

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Post by KenM » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:18 pm

hey, wanderer, two provocative and inflamatory statements about me in one day
a relatively inoffensive guy like kenm

kenm is a millionaire
... is it any wonder I react the way I do :evil:
KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

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Post by KenM » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:45 pm

I respect your opinion. Just apply all those old quotes of mine to this situation you've got it!
Thanks for the invitation, ES.

From your Important Announcement on 9 June 2004
... I've had to make a few choices concerning NFB. It costs ... money to keep our site going ... there are those who have donated to help with costs. A few have been very generous ... Those same members are coming through again ...
First I would like to welcome back hocus to NFB! .....

From your announcement it may be alleged that there is a direct link between generous donations to you and your decision to reinstate h^^^s. If true, this would be very disappointing.
KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

hocus2004
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Post by hocus2004 » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:25 am

"salaryguru pretty much exposed the hoco-logic over at the dory 36 boards: "

I advise community members seeking a better understanding of both the subtance and process isssues at play in the Great SWR Debate to review both the thread referred to above --"SWR of 6.21% for 26 Years?"-- and the more recent "Yahoo Finance Quiz" thread. Both can be found at the Early Retirement Forum board. Both demonstrate in powerful ways the intense desire of the community to learn more about the realities of SWRs. Both show that we possess access to many fine posters capable of engaging in enjoyable and profitable learning experiences.

Both also reveal how the new internet discussion board communications medium is capable of doing not only great good, but also great harm. Both reveal in stark terms the damage that can be done to posting communities through the efforts of a few posters unwilling to follow the posting rules that the vast majority has shown itself willing to abide by. In short, you will find mind-blowing stuff in those two threads. And you will come across a not insignificant amount of trash posting aimed at blocking the reasoned discussions too.

It's the same mix you would discover by reading the entire transscript of the 25 months of discussions. The two recent Early Retirement Forum threads serve nicely as capsule summaries of the SWR discussions of the past 25 months for those who have joined us late or who were not paying close attention during the first go-around. Links to the two threads can be found at the "Normalization of SWR Discussions" thread at the SWR Research Group board.

There's one important way in which what you see in the two Early Retirement Forum threads is different from what you see reading the entire Post Archives. It's this encouraging difference that I was tryng to bring some attention to in the "Normalization" thread. The same mix of good and bad is present, but in the Dory36 threads the majority of posts are constructive and only a minority are trash while it's the other way around in the debate transcript.

We have Dory36 to thank for that. He's the owner of the Early Retirement Forum site and not incidentally was one of our finest posters from the Golden Era of the Motley Fool board. My sense is that Dory36 is strugglling with this as much as (or perhaps more than) everyone else. My sense is that he considers intercst a personal friend because of things he learned from him at earlier times. My guess is that he has communicated with intercst privately and implored him to knock off the funny business, but thus far to no avail.

If you want Dory36 to follow ES's lead in doing the right thing, it wouldn't hurt to let him know that you are sympathetic to his plight. No site owner should be placed in circumstances in which he is forced to choose between termininating the posting privileges of an old friend or compromising the integrity of his discussion board site.

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ataloss
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Post by ataloss » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:24 am

kenM is easily baited, he is reacting not just to what has been written in the past few days but to the relation of that content to the past context. As jwr has said "Kenm is light years ahead."

we can see kenm and raddr's response but how many others will just drift away from the ranting. bensola for example. Hocus claimed at dory36's board that:

The reality is that you are now using the tool that I developed in 1996. I made use of the tool and it saved my retirement. BenSolar has made use of the tool and in all likelihood it is going to save him hundreds of thousands of dollars.

and bensolar responded (at tmf) that if hocus would tell us what the tool is he could confirm or deny that he was using it.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=20874687

I anticipate that many will just stay away from the board and you will never know why.
Have fun.

Ataloss

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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:05 am

Greetings Ken :)
From your announcement it may be alleged that there is a direct link between generous donations to you and your decision to reinstate h^^^s. If true, this would be very disappointing.

Well my disappointments exist on many levels. My recent decision is not one of them. The reaction I've received from many of those I've respected for years is. That has been offset somewhat by the great support I've received from many others who will continue to be with us. :D

I think everyone is now well aware of the feelings on this issue. It's time to move on.
"The best things in life are FREE!"

www.nofeeboards.com

hocus2004
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Post by hocus2004 » Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:18 am

"bensolar responded (at tmf) that if hocus would tell us what the tool is he could confirm or deny that he was using it. "

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2607

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BenSolar
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Post by BenSolar » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:11 am

hocus2004 wrote: "bensolar responded (at tmf) that if hocus would tell us what the tool is he could confirm or deny that he was using it. "

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2607


I deny.

Please don't throw me in the briar patch, Mr. Bennett. :wink:
"Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for." - Epicurus

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Post by hocus2004 » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:25 am

"I deny.

Please don't throw me in the briar patch, Mr. Bennett."

People who post things on public discussion boards thereby throw themselves into "the briar patch."

It is an established fact that you have taken advantage of the insight that I put forward in my post of May 13, 2002. I am of course going to make note of that fact in making the case to the community of the value of the insight.

You are free to deny having said what you said in earlier posts. I am free to post links to the earlier posts contradicting your denials.

Community members will look at the cases presented by each of the two posters involved and decide for themselves what to think about the questions in dispute.

I am not going to engage in any funny business, you can count on that. But I will of course make use of the Post Archives to discredit the testimony of posters who are unfairly disparaging the data-based SWR tool.

I wish you would play it the other way, BenSolar.

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Post by wanderer » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:05 am

th -

must be a hearty feeling to be the one with all the "right" knowledge...

Boy are you late to the party. I would say the prime claimant of 'insight' into matters FIRE resides at the SWR board. As a matter of fact, he has annointed himself as "the most knowledgable person" in the 'FIRE movement'.

Good luck in your peacemaking.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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ataloss
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Post by ataloss » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:17 am

bensolar has not thanked hocus for the hundreds of thousands of dollars and wanderer continues to refuse to thank him for inventing value investing
Have fun.

Ataloss

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Post by wanderer » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:37 am

wanderer continues to refuse to thank him for inventing value investing

what can i say? I'm a pr*ck. :lol:
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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Post by wanderer » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:42 am

From the 'physician heal thyself' department:

hocus said (my edits in bold)

There is an extensive record in the Post Archives showing that posters who employ the phrases like 'not ready to discuss the realities of SWRs' or 'dishonest posting practices' or 'word game posts' or... for purely tactical purposes are by the act of doing so pouring poision into the water supply of the FIRE/Passion Saving/Retire Early posting communities. Anyone who continues playing these sorts of games at this point, acting with full knowledge of the great damage they have done to the various communities over the course of the past 25 months, stands a good chance of seeing his or her block getting knocked off.

Given your last sentence, I'd be worried if I were you. :)
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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Post by wanderer » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:45 am

hocus

You are free to deny having said what you said in earlier posts. I am free to post links to the earlier posts contradicting your denials.

yabbut when ataloss took his valuable time and provided quote after contradictory quote from you, you poisoned the FIRE well by crying 'word games'.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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Post by BenSolar » Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:12 am

hocus2004 wrote: It is an established fact that you have taken advantage of the insight that I put forward in my post of May 13, 2002. I am of course going to make note of that fact in making the case to the community of the value of the insight.

You are free to deny having said what you said in earlier posts. I am free to post links to the earlier posts contradicting your denials.
...
I wish you would play it the other way, BenSolar.


I have said it before and I will say it again. I actively participated in the debate on the effect of valuation on SWRs. That debate was started by you (at least in my experience): there's your credit. During the debate I did extensive research into the effect of valuations on stock market returns, especially reading Dr Shiller's papers available on his website, and I did my own noodling using the stock market data that Dr. Shiller posted. As a result of these readings and research I came to the conclusion that the S&P 500 was at such a high valuation that I should reduce my exposure to it, because I became convinced that said valuation meant low returns for that asset class and I'd rather have my money elsewhere. That is it in a nutshell. You don't get credit for my hours of research and writing on the subject during which I convinced myself to lower my allocation of S&P 500.

Yes, your posts had an influence on me, played an important role in my starting to research the subject. But my discovery of Dr. Shiller's research, PE-10, and the data he posted, my spending hours upon hours reading up on the subject and experimenting with the numbers, reading Dr. Bernstein's work on the subject, etc ... that is why I changed my allocation. Not because of a few posts on a message board from an anonymous member of the Motley Fool. Though those posts are back there in the causal chain somewhere.

I didn't use your 'data-based SWR tool' as linked to above because, for one thing, I didn't give a crap about the SWR of the asset classes I was looking at for my personal situation. I won't be withdrawing for years!

'Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox--bred en bawn in a brier-patch!'
"Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for." - Epicurus

th
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Post by th » Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:55 am

wanderer wrote: th -

must be a hearty feeling to be the one with all the "right" knowledge...

Boy are you late to the party. I would say the prime claimant of 'insight' into matters FIRE resides at the SWR board. As a matter of fact, he has annointed himself as "the most knowledgable person" in the 'FIRE movement'.

Good luck in your peacemaking.


Actually there are several non-hocus folks who feel their answers are the "right" ones and will go to great lengths to express their rightness.

Ironically, sometimes these are the people who cry "troll" at others.

I also remain mildly amused that the very people concerned about the "troll" are the ones feeding it the most.

Hocus - may I suggest that you stick with honing your system and advice and let those who benefit from it speak for themselves? The efforts to say who did and didnt benefit, frequently amidst their uncertainty or disagreement, is of no apparent benefit.

Also, just to be clear, i'm not a peacemaker. I'm an asshole. :wink:
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche

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