Hocus is back?!

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Hocus is back?!

Post by raddr » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:27 am

Hi ES,

In the above locked Important announcement! post you deliver this shocker:
First I would like to welcome back hocus to NFB! He will be taking over the board he created, the SWR board, where he, John and all those interested can continue their SWR work.


Are you serious about this? :? If so, can you share your thoughts as to why you made this decision? If it really is true then will hocus be allowed to post on boards other than the SWR board (I would hope not)?

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Post by hocus2004 » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:52 am

It's good to hear your voice up close again, raddr.

I believe that the most important issue before the FIRE/Passion Saving/Retire Early community at this time is the issue of the realities of SWRs. Thus, I expect to be posting primarily at the SWR board and only on rare occasions (such as this one!) on the other boards of this site.

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Post by ataloss » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:44 am

I have got to thank hocus for the link to this thread at the dory 36 boards:
When I worked in a psychiatric setting I was on a treatment team consisting of physicians and other professionals. We always had one or two patients who behaved in a "passive-aggressive" manner. These folks consumed countless hours of our time. They irritated and frustrated others in countless small ways, but always stayed within the boundaries of socially acceptable behavior. They tended to be indirectly manipulative and would needle and prod their target repeatedly; always knowing what buttons to push. They tried to get the targeted person to explode. The passive-aggressive patient almost never crossed the line. They were usually very subtle, and almost ingratiatingly polite on the surface. When their target reacted in anger, the passive-aggressive patient would feign innocence and place the target into a position where it was almost impossible to explain why they reacted so strongly. They came off sounding petty and childish, which is just what the passive-aggressive patient intended. To the uninvolved observer, it often appeared that the person who blew up was overreacting, and the person behaving in a passive-aggressive style was a "victim." There was nothing more difficult than dealing with these folks, and I can recall adding up the hourly pay of all the people sitting around the table with me and thinking, "There's over $1000/hour worth of experienced and highly trained brain power sitting here trying to outmaneuver this passive-aggressive patient with a 6th grade education, and we're stumped".

There's a long history here, and I think Hocus knows how to push intercst's buttons. And look where he has us; we've all been set-up to take sides - either for him or against him. Meanwhile, he sits back seemingly enjoying the show. He even interjects comments as his fate on this board is debated. He has made himself THE big issue and seems to relish that role. And he has done all of this in the past, so he clearly understands the damage it causes, yet he continues to do it anyway. I don't believe he operates here in good faith. I've seen this type of thing played out a hundred times, and this has all the markings of a game-player at work.


http://early-retirement.org/cgi-bin/yab ... ;start=240

This wasn't the post hocus was citing in that thread but bob_smith has hit the nail on the head (to quote cutthroat)
Have fun.

Ataloss

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Post by hocus2004 » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:54 am

Ataloss: bob smith has hit the nail on the head



You got me dead to rights on that one, ataloss.

I'm all true. I'm wacky!

Just remember--

Wacky is good!

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Post by ElSupremo » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:00 am

Greetings ataloss :)

It doesn't have to happen that way. We can make a fresh start here. Everyone can have their say and let everyone else have theirs. We can all do it in a civilized and fun atmosphere where we can all learn from the experience. It's up to each of us as individuals to make that happen.
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Post by ElSupremo » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:08 am

Greetings raddr :)

Please check your private messages. Thanks!
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Post by ataloss » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:23 am

but it is that way ES, look at the first hocus2004 post. He is right anyone who disagrees is playing word games or doesn't understand. There was an amusing exchange over at the dory36 board hocus wanted to argue about whether his cd/tips portfolio was fixed income or not.

Anyway, I will be posting over at an msn board I started a while back. I just don't like posting at sites consumed with hocus nonsense. If he ever does tell you what his secret "tool" is, let me know. I plan to read posts here and post from time to time. By the way, you and anyone else (with the exception of two posters) are welcome to come over. Access is controlled to keep out trolls :wink: See you around.


By the way, the msn board requires you to have one of those passport things activated to get to the board (and then permission to enter) Sorry for the complications.
Last edited by ataloss on Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Have fun.

Ataloss

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Post by hocus2004 » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:36 am

Ataloss: "I plan to read posts here and post from time to time."


I am sincerely heartened to read that part.

I made reference to a song in an album by the quiet Beatle in that same Early Retirement Forum thread that you cited above--"That's the Way God Planned It." Well, the way that God planned it was that you continue to be a part of this community, a community that you did an awful lot to lift off the ground in its start-up days.

There are a lot of things that I want to see happen so that we will all begin to feel better about what has gone down in the Great SWR Debate. With this last post of yours, I have added an item to the list. I want to see you back here contributing in the way that you did in earlier times.

I will do what I can with my posting efforts to make that happen. I hope you will keep your mind open to the idea of resuming your posting career here on a full-time basis. We have important work to do. We need all the good posting talent we can get our hands on.

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Post by wanderer » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:45 am

I don't plan on touching the hocus2004 tar baby.

I will check in periodically if I have something to add or an investment question.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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Post by raddr » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:30 am

ElSupremo wrote: Greetings raddr :)

Please check your private messages. Thanks!


Hi ES,

Got it - thanks! I'm going to step back, let the dust settle, check out ataloss' new board, and think this thing through before I decide on my future here at NFB. Even if this is the end of it here for me, thanks for nearly 2 years of a great internet discussion board experience. I've learned a lot here and made some good friends.

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Post by FMO » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:51 am

I refuse to have my board experience dominated by this crap. Thanks for the memories.
FMO

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Post by ElSupremo » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:09 am

Greetings NFBers :)

Just to be fair I'll point out that I've received several supportive and positive responses on this subject as well. Not everyone feels the same and they've been refreshingly understanding and feel as I do that fresh starts are a good thing.

I deeply regret that a few folks can't find a way to get along with others. And that they feel the need to leave because of that. But you've got to do what you got to do and I respect their decision and wish them nothing but the best.
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Post by raddr » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:32 pm

ElSupremo wrote: I deeply regret that a few folks can't find a way to get along with others. And that they feel the need to leave because of that.


ES,

So it is the non-disruptive folks who have made positive contributions and not the one who has been banned from multiple boards (including this one by you) that need to learn to "get along"? I hope this is not what you really mean. :lol:

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Post by ElSupremo » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:31 pm

Greetings raddr :)

There seems to be some confusion concerning my fresh start program. :wink: I want to see everyone get along from this point forward. The past is in the past. Let's leave it there. Give the present a chance to work. That's all I ask.
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Post by th » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:36 pm

We went through the hocus thing on another board.

The bottom line is you choose whether or not to read what anyone writes, how you react to it, and what you do as a result.

I actually said I would leave the other board if he was banned, as intercst called for. Not so much that I care a whit about Hocus or anything he has to say but I have a serious problem with deciding who gets to say what where.

At least without an up front disclaimer that "this site represents the views and opinions of only a select group of people that we decided to agree with".

I know he's been a PITA before. If you dont like him or his opinion, or think his opinions are off the wall and nonsensical, then dont read his stuff, dont react to it, and dont do anything.

I do have to admit that some of his non-SWR posts are interesting reading, and at least the SWR stuff stirs up some discussion and gives us shiftless bums something to spend our time on...
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Nietzsche

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Post by hocus2004 » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:04 am

TH: "at least the SWR stuff stirs up some discussion"


I wonder why.

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Post by ataloss » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:04 am

ES, after the last hocus fiasco that lead to his banning I think it was anticipatable that people would leave if he returned. I think the loss of FMO is a real blow to NFB. It was nice to have an interlude free of the unpleasantness and name calling from the hocus era. I set up an alternative board at that time because I wanted to keep in touch with those who might leave. FMO posts over at TMF but others don't. I am not interested in running a competing site.

It seems at least a bit asymmetric that hocus is allowed back, posts a first message indicating that either you agree with him or you are wrong and then FMO is considered to be the one to have a problem "getting along."

It is ironic that there is discussion about disagreeing with hocus about swr when essentially hocus has no point. He is now claiming to have invented some swr tool in 1996 but he has never really said what that tool is despite multiple requests. (Maybe if he told jwr he wouldn't need to spend so much time with a switching strategy that no one will use.)

TH doesn't know what he is talking about but I sympathize because I was TH over at TMF. I though people were being mean to hocus- having no idea that the discussion had been going around in circles for 18 months. I actually decided to try to ferret out what hocus meant but he sort of dissolved into self-contradictory nonsense. I put a lot of work into posts documenting hocus said this then hocus said that- how can these statements be reconciled (they couldn't.)

Typically, in this thread in response to your statement about swr being controversial hocus has said "I wonder why," probably indirectly raising his old issue about how people are threatened by his challenging "insights." On the other had you have asked us to respond to swr and hocus at his board:
If you disagree with the research there feel free to state your case, but please do it on the SWR board.


And as I have pointed out many times before there is this statement in the original welcome to the swr board:
One of the neat things about being Moderator of this board is that I have the ability to deliver an electric shock to anyone who tries to read posts put to the board without first reading all the words of that chapter with care. Please do not give me cause to make use of this extraordinary power.


So if anyone was interested in debating hocus, it would be entirely on his terms.

I have put up a lot of time into posting here and at one point felt that incorrect information should be countered. I have given that up.
Have fun.

Ataloss

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Post by raddr » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:39 am

Great post ataloss. Right on!
I have put up a lot of time into posting here


Indeed you have. Even if the defections from this board are limited to you and FMO (highly unlikely - there will be more) it will be a huge loss for NFB.

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Post by bpp » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:53 am

ataloss, raddr, et al.,

Just ignoring him isn't an option?

Bpp

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Post by hocus2004 » Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:56 am

Ataloss: "So if anyone was interested in debating hocus, it would be entirely on his terms."


Does anyone want to take a guess as to how many posts I deleted in my earlier term as Moderator of the SWR board?

I'll give you a clue. You all know about how one is the lonliest number and two is the lonliest number since the number one and so forth. The number that is the answer to the question above is a number even LONLIER than the number one. It is an extremely lonely number we are talking about here.

Now, the number is probably not always going to be zero. If someone puts up a word game post or an intimidation post or a deception post, I am going to honor my responsibilites to the community that congregates at the board for the purpose of learning the realities of what the data says re SWRs. Play those sorts of games and you will get shut down. Play those sorts of games and you will be leaving me with no realistic choice.

Play it the other way and we will all get along just fine. You can start today. There's no better place on Planet Earth to find out about the realities of SWRs than the SWR Research Group board at NoFeeBoards.com. If you have a question that you haven't been able to get a clear answer to elsewhere, give it a spin.

Put some good words together in a post. Push the button. See what happens.

You only live once, right? Sometimes you just have to take a chance and make things happen.

There's no charge, remember.

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