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wanderer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really stunned by how much former Big 5 Audit Managers can learn from a full-on cluster-... I mean circle-... Oh, you know what I mean. Wink



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings wanderer Smile
Quote:
Will yet another thread where folks rebut idiocy be locked? Inquiring minds want to know....

Here's your answer.. If you can't play by the rules, and you can't be nice, you can bet your a#$ it will! Wink



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wanderer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't play by the rules, and you can't be nice, you can bet your a#$ it will!

Perhaps we disagree on the rules. Have you been snipping/deleting my posts (saw the first one, any others)? whatshisname seems to inspire that sort of thing...

I wonder if you will enjoy the bargain you've struck. Really.



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings wanderer Smile

The rules are there for anyone to read. I "snipped" part of one of your posts a few days back. Bad wanderer. Sad I canned a whole post of someone elses today and it won't be the last I'm afraid. I really don't want to delete posts. But I'm not going to spend hours editing other peoples crap.

I'm enjoying myself with all but one or two threads. Life isn't perfect. Wink And FWIW there was no bargain. That would imply I'm under some obligation. I'm not. Never have been. Never will be.



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hocus_pocus
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ataloss wrote:

3.LOL, best for who? Are you saying I have some sort of obligation?


ataloss, we all have an obligation to espouse and bring erudition to the masses on the principles of early retirement. It is a sacred trust that has been in our hands since before the inception of the great debate that began with the post of May 13th 2002. As you can see that post has set the minds of the many early retirement discussion boards into action.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.

facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet ipso facto.

Lorem ipso hoccer foer tyr wuz de ras cora dola tymon ipso hoc cer fuz de ramas cora dola tymon ipso hoccer. Lorem ipso foer tyr wuz de ramas cora dola tym ipso hor.Lorem ipso foer tyr wuz de ramas cora dola tym ipso hor tyr wuz de ramas cora dola tymon ipso foer tyr wuz de ramas cora dola tymo. Lorem ipso hoccer foer tyr wuz de ras cora dola tymon ipso hoc cer fuz de ramas cora dola tymon ipso hoccer. Lorem ipso foer tyr wuz de ramas cora dola tym ipso hor.

And so you can see from the above evidence that the results of the studies performed by jwr1945 have proven that it is possible to get a 4% HDSWR using 2% CDs, blood can be squeezed from a turnip and 1+1=4.

Have fun,
hocus_pocus



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Last edited by hocus_pocus on Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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unclemick
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1+1 = 4 You bet! Not CD's - INFLATION PROECTED SECURITIES -

"they're from the govenment and they're here to protect us"


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th
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its really a proud moment when we can all act with responsibility and maturity, rather than becoming a worse pain in the ass than the one we're unhappy about.

Good job!



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KenM
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi th
A belated welcome to nfb's happy community.
Quote:
Good job!
Thanks. As you'll note, in your quaint american vernacular I'm both an asshole and a jerk Smile
Quote:
Its really a proud moment when we can all act with responsibility and maturity
Believe it or not I have a serious purpose in trying to establish what the 'new start' rules actually are and how they're interpreted and implemented in practice. ES has said
Quote:
That those views may be right or wrong just does not matter. They get their say just like everyone else does. This simple point is being missed. I've made that mistake in the past. It won't happen again.
If I look at other posts since the 'new start' it is my view that there are already sly insinuations, subtly worded accusations, disinformation, etc and even a direct personal insult where I'm called trash. In my view, none of my posts have been any worse than those and I've made no direct personal insults .... yet my posts have been censored and my threads locked .... whereas posts in a similar style by others have been left untouched and unremarked upon. In my post that has just been totally deleted I expressed my view that it appeared double standards were being applied - the response was to delete the post and not give me the chance "to get my say just like everyone else" as promised. What am I to think .... perhaps this post will be deleted as well Laughing

So ... I'm not angry, I'm not venting - I'm just somewhat sad that it appears to me (and to others) that I've demonstrated that double standards are already being used in applying the 'rules' - whether intentionally or not. Regrettably, one of my (many) weaknesses is that I could probably quite enjoy being a troll - but I'm mature enough to curb such vices and I think it's already probably served it's purpose.

FWIW, to bore you with a little history, I left nfb last year because I didn't like the atmosphere ( I'll leave it to you to guess what it was like) - at no time did I ask for hocus to be totally banned, I didn't expect it and I was very surprised that ES took that action. I then returned to nfb because the atmosphere dramatically changed for the better. Whether or not hocus is at nfb is irrelevant to me - but I'm just asking that the 'rules' are applied fairly and equally to all.



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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"even a direct personal insult where I'm called trash."

Your post was trash, KenM. A lot of your recent posts are trash. You as a person are not trash. I am making an important distinction here.

Community members need to learn how to make that distinction if the various boards are to thrive. Some of the posting tactics you engage in stink up the joint. All community members suffer the effects of the stink. We all have both a right and an obligation to ask you to kindly stop throwing your trash in our direction.

I presume that there is a genuine concern about something that I have done or said lurking somewhere underneath all the histrionics. You should put that concern forward. So long as you are talking about board business, there is no need to surgarcoat it. Say it the way you feel it. That's constructive. Keep it directed at board business and keep it consistent with what actually appears in the Post Archives, and you are doing a good thing.

I would like to hear you express your concern in a reasonable manner. It would give me something to work with. It may be that I would be able to address your concern to your satisfaction. It may be that I would not be able to do that. We won't know until you let me know the actual source of concern in some sort of language that I can make sense of and respond to.

All the intimidation tactics and overblown and inaccurate rhetoric gets us nowhere. You have a point of view and I have a point of view. We are both members of this community. It would be better for both of us to bring it to resolution. I can't absolutely guarantee good results, but I can say that I am highly confident that things can be worked out in a manner satisfactory to all.

Let me know.


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th
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KenM -

I'm glad you appreciate the vernacular, however a jerk and an asshole are mutually opposites. In fact, on the rare occasions someone calls me a jerk, I correct them by saying "No, i'm an asshole". To delineate, a jerk is simply a bad mannered, ill informed person with no purpose. An asshole generally has a very specific purpose and executes a plan (no matter how simple) to achieve that purpose, which is usually offensive to one or more people, often intentionally.

As far as who said what, I'm sorry I cant comment because I simply didnt and dont read any posts i'm not interested in, those from posters I dont want to read, or anything longer than a page. With that plan in mind, i'm a very happy camper and have no problems. With the exception of all the other people who cant seem to keep themselves from creating and feeding the very fear they expressed.

Isnt it a miracle what happens when one simply operates with a moderate level of adult restraint, doesnt let things bother you that you dont need to let bother you, considers all influences before allowing a virtually non-existent one to dominate my life, and so forth?

By the way with regards to fairness, life aint fair. Its impossible to get two reasonable people to agree on everything and most people to agree on half of whats out there. Given that a good percentage of people are unreasonable, its amazing things work out as well as they do. *shrug*

As I said in the other thread, 90+% of the "damage" resulted from the very people who claimed to eschew such "damage", 100% of which was entirely avoidable by simply NOT READING WHAT OFFENDS YOU OR COMMENTING ON IT.

I liken this to people who dont want a tv show or radio show on the air because they dont like it. In the presence of viewing/listening choice, I'm offended when someone else wants to choose my options for available content.

In the absence of common sense, we have burned down the village to save the village because of the ignorable presence of someone some of us do not agree with or like.

Once again...Good Job!! Gold stars for everyone!



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KenM
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

th
Quote:
a jerk and an asshole are mutually opposites
yeah, I know ... and it describes me very well ... I think I may have recently demonstrated I'm both an asshole and a jerk ... the point is that hopefully I have sufficient moral and social responsibility and the self-discipline to control the 'jerk' side of my character most of the time. Regrettably, there are some anti-social people who are not prepared to do this and, for extended periods of time in 2003, the atmosphere was made very unpleasant at nfb and I've just given a short demonstration of what it was like. Many of those who are now protesting at the 'new start' are not being petulant - they took exception to the personal attacks on their integrity/honesty at that time - and these are the 'nice' guys, not assholes like me. It was therefore a shock when ES made a sudden change in direction in 6 weeks from And do we really miss the trolls? to the 'new start'.

You talk about your experiences as a senior manager but you don't say whether you sacked anyone or not. In my time I've sacked quite a few people for a wide variety of reasons - I've reinstated one or two. In my experience, reinstatement requires careful thought and preparation if it's not to upset and/or adversely affect the attitude of other staff. OK ... so this is only an internet board ... so what the **** does it matter ... but I suggest ES could have handled it somewhat better and avoided some of the aggro and could have avoided upsetting some of his old friends . Hopefully, after the last few days of aggro and perhaps assisted by my demonstration of obnoxious behaviour, the situation is now fully transparent and people can make their own decisions based on a full understanding of the 'new start' ... so as ES says, it's time to move on .....

.... however, before I do Laughing, I'll mention my own position (if it's of interest to anybody). In one of your posts you describe troll-like behaviour but, in my view, you omit the most important part i.e. trolls often resort to innuendo, sly insinuations and subtle accusations in the pursuit of their objective, which is to create controversy for its own sake, discredit those with whom they disagree, or sabotage discussion by creating an intimidating atmosphere and I find this part of the behaviour particularly offensive. You also express the view, held by many, that the way to deal with it is to ignore it. However I have a strong aversion to similar such anti-social, boorish behaviour in other aspects of my life and the community I live in and, as a matter of principle, refuse to ignore or excuse it and have no wish to be associated with it - if it is generally "tolerated" with a shrug-of-the-shoulders, can't-do-much-about-it, pretend-it's-not-there attitude or it's excused because the instigator "can't-help-it" then, if regrettably I have no other sanction to apply, I exit from the audience as quickly as possible.

So ... hocus is back ... he's said he will post only rarely on boards other than the SWR board ... I'll drop in to nfb now and again to see what happens ... I'm quite happy to ignore whatever goes on in the SWR board and to stay away from it ... if the atmosphere on the other boards can be maintained at a pleasant and constructive level for a period of time then later on I might start contributing again if I have anything worthwhile to say. If there's disruption and unpleasantness I'll just fade away Cool into retirement ... but, please, I'm not (quite) arrogant enough for this to be taken as some sort of absurd ultimatum ..... it's just my own personal position and I suppose I'm immodest enough to think there might be one or two who are interested.

ES has talked about second chances. Although I would have thought we're on about the fourth or fifth chance by now, perhaps "This time it really is different". It appears jwr/hocus have put money into nfb therefore presumably there's an incentive to try to ensure that nfb functions well. Whatever happens, in my opinion hocus's views at the technical level have very liitle merit and, to be blunt, I dislike him at the personal level therefore I won't be entering into any form of dialogue or debate with him at any level or at any time ... I wish the best of luck to those who do.

Although this post may not be 'nice', this time I've tried to make it constructive. We'll see if ES can keep his scissors in the drawer Wink. If it looks as though it might be useful I may post a clarification or two to this post ... otherwise I'll sit back for a couple of months or so at raddr's board and see what happens.



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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"this time I've tried to make it constructive."

You did do that, KenM, and I appreciate it. You gave me some things to work with in that post.

I think it best that I not respond to them here. I understand that you feel too strong a dislike of me at this time to go over to the SWR board today and start a discussion of these questions over there. I have hopes that at some future day perhaps you will do that. If you go over there and put up something along the lines of this last post of yours, I assure you that you will be given a warm welcome.

The issues that you raised in this post are important ones. You are saying that I have suggested that other community members are dishonest. You are saying that I have been deliberately provacative for non-constructive reasons. You are saying that my SWR claims are not well-founded. You are clearly not the only one who thinks these things. So these questions certainly should not be censored. They must be aired if we are to achieve healing.

I would like to see you or someone else go over to the SWR board at some point and put up a post with a title of something along the lines of "Does hocus think we are all dishonest?" Or "Does hocus think he is smarter than the rest of us?" Or whatever. If you really must, you can even put one up with the title "Is hocus a troll?"

Such a post can be constructive if done with sincere intent. If you want to know the answer to the question "Is hocus a troll?" you must be willing to listen to the answer that I provide to the question. For the discussion to go anywhere good, there has to be constructive back and forth.

Until now, the intent has been to get hocus off these boards, and any words that served that purpose were considered acceptable words. That is what has to change. I am a member of the community just like you and I am entitled to expect that the same ground rules that apply when people mention your name in a post also apply when someone mentions my name in a post.

We can co-exist on the same board, KenM. We cannot co-exist too well today because you have such strong negative feelings towards me. We need you in the community. So I would be grateful if you would think over the idea of at some point raising these questions at the SWR board and seeing whether we can come to some better understanding of each other.

What I believe has happened is that you have certain suppositions in your head about me. I say something and you interpret it to be a sign of X when in reality it is not. I would address the supposition if I knew what it was. But I don't, so I can't.

The big one you have raised here already is the honesty question. It seems certain to me that that must be a big one. We need to discuss it. It's a delicate matter, so we need to go about it in a cautious way. But we can't not discuss it. Your feelings are strong and they are not going to go away unless you hear something from me that sets your mind at ease.

I am not going to give yes or no answers. Neither the answer "yes, everyone has been dishonest in every post since May, 13, 2002" nor the answer "no, no one has been dishonest in any post since May, 13, 2002" are on target. It's probably not going to be an easy discussion.

It's a discussion we can be optimistic about, however. When we finish the discussion we will be in a better place. I have directed many thousands of hours of my life to building up the various boards. It is very important to me that they succeed. So I will do everything I can to make any discussions along these lines come to a successful conclusion. The troublesome things that absolutely have to be said I will say, but I will not say one word beyond the minimum that is absolutely necessary.

We have lost too many people already. We sure don't want to lose one more. On this we are united. We need to take that unity and build on it. We need to say, given the fact that we all want to avoid any more losses, what can be said about this matter to get things back on track?

You are permitted to hate my guts. So long as that is a sincere feeling of yours, you are doing a good thing for the community by sharing it with others. Others have a right to know where this hocus individual is coming from, and your feeling of hating my guts tells them something. The key is that you need to be willing to say why you hate my guts in a way that permits me to respond and let community members in on the other side of the story. It is not acceptable for you all to gang up on me and try to stomp out any possibility of my side of the story getting heard.


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ataloss
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you hocus-pocus for reminding us of the value of the swr tool (4% withdrawals from 2% tips) quite a tool

sg, th, ben and others have questioned or pointed out issues to hocus/jwr on the research board and the dynamic duo of hasn't been directly confrontational but I am sure they will continue to misrepresent their "tool" and attribute any opposition to the conspiracy to obscure the truth about swr.
Quote:
If I look at other posts since the 'new start' it is my view that there are already sly insinuations, subtly worded accusations, disinformation, etc and even a direct personal insult where I'm called trash. In my view, none of my posts have been any worse than those and I've made no direct personal insults .... yet my posts have been censored and my threads locked .... whereas posts in a similar style by others have been left untouched and unremarked upon.....Kenm


They have figured out the system that ES is using and avoid violating the rules. Newbies like th don't understand the subtleties but offer suggestions. I don't need this nonsense so I will take th's suggestion to raddr (probably the most valuable contributor to this site) and leave



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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"4% withdrawals from 2% tips"

Here is a link relating to the TIPS question.

"A Bright Future"

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2598

"sg, th, ben and others have questioned or pointed out issues to hocus/jwr on the research board"

Here are links to the three threads referenced here.

1) "What I Guess Is An Independent Analysis of All This"--started by "th," with comments by Kathyet, unclemick, and Mike.

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2627

2) "SWR As a Tool," with comments by bpp and SalaryGuru.

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2627

3) "Concrete Actions to Take In Today's Environment," started by Ben, with comments by unclemick and th.

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2613


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hocus2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the link wrong for the "SWR as a Tool" thread. Here is the correct link for that thread.

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2607


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th
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken -

You may be shocked at this, but in the course of managing (wild guess) 300-350 people in total, I fired exactly one. He was an ok performer, but was driving 90 minutes each way to work and one of our customers loved him and wanted to hire him, but our contract with the customer prohibited hiring our employees. So I fired him and they hired him the next day at 25% more than we were paying him. 90 minute commute to 5. He was very appreciative.

The bottom line is I never found anyone that I couldnt performance manage to an adequate level, and never found anyone that couldnt contribute something of relative value commensurate with their compensation. Some people couldnt work well with others - I had plenty of stuff that needed to be done by one internally focused person. Others were incomplete on their own, but combined with the right team with the right yings and yangs, they were successful as a unit.

I did get 3 people to the "I'm documenting you and will fire you if this doesnt change" stage, but it was worked out. I think they just wanted to see if I had it in me. Wink

Also, I never had anyone transfer out of a group that I managed.

After pontificating on that, I'll simply say that I agree with almost everything else you said. Except the part about the "hidden slights". I'll say it again: if can only bother you if you read it, and then only if you let it, and if letting it visibly bother you is what the other guy wants, why give it to him? As far as what happened in the past with people and places, I wasnt here so I cant pretend to really understand it. But if it was something I havent seen elsewhere in 20 years of online communications, I would be very surprised.

As far as Hocus's SWR thing, this is my last word, and I promise...its the last word. The thinking bears merit, its one more arrow in the quiver. Whether its right or wrong or part right or all right combined with some other work or continued work (whatever the heck that might be) remains to be seen. Declaring one approach right or wrong at this juncture would be extremely premature. There are some unsolvable problems with both the "traditional" method and with Hocus's proposed method. The chief unsolvable problem with the traditional method is that one must ride all tides, even when they look like they're taking you into a dock piling. The chief unsolvable problem with Hocus's method is it requires making equity decisions on price points that could be 10-20-30% off of their true highs and lows, and it requires mathematical prediction of things that arent really particularly mathematical.

The good news is I'm not going to read any more about it, or write any more about it. Hence I dont care. Smile



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings th Smile
Quote:
I'll say it again: it can only bother you if you read it, and then only if you let it

I'll second that. Again. Wink



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KenM
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ES
.... I'm still trying to understand ....

th repeatedly makes the point
Quote:
I'll say it again: it can only bother you if you read it, and then only if you let it
and you repeatedly fully agree
Quote:
I'll second that. Again.
.... so why censor my posts and my threads? ... OK so in your view they're crap but they express my opinion and don't contain any direct personal insults - so why not just ignore them? Confused



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th
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ataloss wrote:
I don't need this nonsense so I will take th's suggestion to raddr (probably the most valuable contributor to this site) and leave


Actually that wasnt my suggestion.

My suggestion was to act like a grown up with the wherewithal to retire early and learn the simple act of ignoring someone that "bothers" you. Eight year old girls learn to ignore eight year old boys. Can we not do better?

My last "suggestion" to raddr, and I know not what he/she has added to the community when or where, is that if he/she cant manage to do more than leave persistent "I'm leaving now...I'm really leaving...I cant take this...I'm out of here" posts, is to leave already. Perhaps harsh if he/she was a good contributor, but a good contributor has ownership, and ownership implies responsibility. Responsibility implies being able to make and execute simple decisions. Not to be sent on a tizzy because some guy with a different opinion thats been arguably a dickhead in the past is now allowed back in the clubhouse.

But thats my opinion, I could be wrong.



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th
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KenM wrote:
ES
.... I'm still trying to understand ....

th repeatedly makes the point
Quote:
I'll say it again: it can only bother you if you read it, and then only if you let it
and you repeatedly fully agree
Quote:
I'll second that. Again.
.... so why censor my posts and my threads? ... OK so in your view they're crap but they express my opinion and don't contain any direct personal insults - so why not just ignore them? Confused


ES, for what its worth from a damp eared newbie, let them have their say and allow them to keep saying it for as long as they like.

Although I think everything worth saying has been said, when people want to say it again, its because they think they havent been heard the first time, or at least havent been properly acknowledged.

Say what you have to say, lets acknowledge and respond, and can we then move on?



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