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datasnooper
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Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:51 pm    Post subject: What happened? Reply with quote

Hi all I checked out the site and it appears there was some controversy regarding hocus. I'm surprised to learn this. Can somebody please point to some conversations where the issues arose? Email if it is too sensitive to see the light of day again. I am serious but not here to make an issue of it all or to restart any fights - just surprised to learn of this turn of events. I am also not familiar with what he has been posting at the Fool in recent time. Thanks.

Datasnooper.


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WiseNLucky
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back, Datasnooper!

There was no general announcement. Here is a thread about him not posting here any more:

http://nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1688

And here about him posting at TMF:

http://nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1680

Again, glad to see you back.



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WiseNLucky
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I just read your request a little closer.

Here is one thread about the issues leading up to the move:

http://nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1610

Also there were a number about trolls. Just do a search on troll if you are interested.

The truly incendiary posts on both sides have been deleted by ES, including, if I remember correctly, an entire thread. Which is a good thing because it got pretty ugly.

Again, I feel ES did an outstanding job trying to get everyone to behave rationally while keeping all posters. When the outflow of posters began to accelerate, he reluctantly eliminated one poster and ended up getting a lot of previous posters back. The forum has returned to normal since then.

Hopefully this brief synopsis is helpful.



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I just wish everyone could step back and get less car and less house then they want, and realize they don't NEED more. -- NeuroFool
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datasnooper
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I feel ES did an outstanding job trying to get everyone to behave rationally while keeping all posters.

That's a slippery slope to say the least. All that has been tried at the Fool before anddit didn't work for everybody. Although I think ES made a big mistake here it's probably true, however, that no site can contain everybody and therefore it shouldn't even attempt. I had problems with the Fool and also stopped following the indexfund board while at MSN (and this site by implication) for similar reasons. Anyways thanks for the info which combined with what I received elsewhere gives me an idea about the drama that unfolded here. I'm still surprised and it's really a shame to see.

Datasnooper.


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JWR1945
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Joined: 26 Nov 2002
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Location: Crestview, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For datasnooper:

I will confirm all of the points that hocus made in the email that he sent to you.

Have fun.

John R.


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ataloss
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Joined: 25 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All that has been tried at the Fool before anddit didn't work for everybody


actually people at tmf seem to be pretty satisfied without ykw



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Last edited by ataloss on Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ElSupremo
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Joined: 21 Nov 2002
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings datasnooper Smile
Quote:
Although I think ES made a big mistake here it's probably true, however, that no site can contain everybody and therefore it shouldn't even attempt.

If you would really like both sides of the story you can send me a PM or email. Since you've been contacted by other parties regarding the matter I'll be glad to respond to anything you've been told by others from the NFB point of view offline. As far as my "big mistake" goes I believe that's a matter of opinion and a decision that many where involved in along with myself. FWIW this is all old news and we have moved on. The only reason I'm responding is my respect for your many contributions over the years and the fact that you would be a welcome addition here as a regular at NFB. Feel free to contact me if you wish.



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datasnooper
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually people at tmf seem to be pretty satisfied without ykw

My point was more general. If I participated at TMF my experience would be improved with the presence of hocus. I am sure other people feel the same way. None of of this of course is a contradiction of your statement that people at TMF, or more precisely perhaps one particular board, are pretty satisfied without him. I think TMF would be a better place with people that have been driven off the boards for various reasons (including many that participate at NFB) than it is currently without them. From the examples I can think of it almost always lowers the quality when opposing elements disappear, in particular when they are in effect voted off because this tells a lot about the people that remain.

Datasnooper.


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raddr
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

datasnooper wrote:
From the examples I can think of it almost always lowers the quality when opposing elements disappear, in particular when they are in effect voted off because this tells a lot about the people that remain.


Why don't you invite him to discuss SWR's, intercst's thought crimes, and conspiracy theories over at your board then, LOL!!!


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datasnooper
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you would really like both sides of the story you can send me a PM or email.

No thanks I understand that there are two sides to the story in this case and in particular some people that I respect very much on your side.

As far as my "big mistake" goes I believe that's a matter of opinion and a decision that many where involved in along with myself.

Exactly. Group-think, ... remember?

FWIW this is all old news and we have moved on.

I am not here to shake up anything just to understand because it really surprises me to learn this. From the time at TMF it looked like you were all on the same side. No reason to proceed further with this.

Datasnooper.


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karma
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! I didn't think anyone would dislike ES! He has been the soul of, well, putting up with lots of nasty stuffness.

Group-think doesn't work unless TMF is on the same wavelength as NFB. And I don't think it is (from reports).

All I can say to Datasnooper (and I am a recent addition to NFS) is that hocus said things about people that would be really hard to put up with.

And it is possible that I don't know everything. But I do know troll behavoir when I see it.

karma


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ataloss
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From the time at TMF it looked like you were all on the same side.


actually I have never seen es and intercst together in the same place maybe they are one person!



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Ataloss
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datasnooper
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say to Datasnooper (and I am a recent addition to NFS) is that hocus said things about people that would be really hard to put up with.

In discussions elsewhere I have said things about people that would be really hard to put up with. I have behaved like a child, whining. I have attacked the person instead of the ball. Left, burned the bridges only to return. I have done all this and more. In the end I'm not very proud of myself. Part of the blame rests with me, part with other participants. In the end probably a fight is better than no fight.

Datasnooper.


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datasnooper
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually I have never seen es and intercst together in the same place maybe they are one person!

I had in mind you, wanderer, hocus, and more. Not intercst.

Datasnooper.


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karma
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In discussions elsewhere I have said things about people that would be really hard to put up with. I have behaved like a child, whining. I have attacked the person instead of the ball. Left, burned the bridges only to return. I have done all this and more. In the end I'm not very proud of myself. Part of the blame rests with me, part with other participants. In the end probably a fight is better than no fight.


Well, interesting. But I guess we just don't do that here. And I'm just as glad.

karma


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KenM
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's interesting is that it appears to me that most at nfb would probably not disagree with much of hocus's general concepts on the technical aspects of investing. It's the rants and troll-like behaviour (intentional or unintentional?) that people object to and even then, if it had been contained within the nfb board moderated by hocus, I assume nfb members would have generally tolerated it - so there was no lack of opportunity for free speech and expression of views, rants, etc.

For me, internet boards should be for a group of friends/acquaintences to get together to discuss things in a pleasant manner where all the normal social conventions of civilised human interaction and behaviour apply. I'm not interested in an environment similar to parliamentary debate to fight to solve all the major issues of the day by disruptive tactics, implied insults etc etc. Internet boards should be fun, enjoyable and productive - if not, then what's the point??? I intend to have fun Very Happy



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peteyperson
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

datasnooper,

It surprises me that you ask what happened (i.e. no knowledge) but in the next breathe condone the action as incorrect (judging without the relevant facts). Confused

Petey
datasnooper wrote:
Again, I feel ES did an outstanding job trying to get everyone to behave rationally while keeping all posters.

That's a slippery slope to say the least. All that has been tried at the Fool before anddit didn't work for everybody. Although I think ES made a big mistake here it's probably true, however, that no site can contain everybody and therefore it shouldn't even attempt. I had problems with the Fool and also stopped following the indexfund board while at MSN (and this site by implication) for similar reasons. Anyways thanks for the info which combined with what I received elsewhere gives me an idea about the drama that unfolded here. I'm still surprised and it's really a shame to see.

Datasnooper.


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wanderer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had in mind you, wanderer, hocus, and more.

snoop -

For some reason, hocus was not content to stay on the 'Research' board (set up for him and anyone who chose to discuss their topics ad nauseum). I thought that was mighty generous of es.

Many folks with no background with hocus found his approach objectionable. Maybe they can shed some light about their experience and why they chose not to participate at hocus' board.

BTW, until recently, my experiences with him were very pleasant. I'd welcome hocus back if he'd cut the nonsense (but it's not my decision). In the end, I found his pronouncements as unstomachable as those at the fool site.



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The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
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ChocoKitty
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wanderer wrote:
I had in mind you, wanderer, hocus, and more.

snoop -

For some reason, hocus was not content to stay on the 'Research' board (set up for him and anyone who chose to discuss their topics ad nauseum). I thought that was mighty generous of es.

Many folks with no background with hocus found his approach objectionable. Maybe they can shed some light about their experience and why they chose not to participate at hocus' board.


This intrusive behavior was not limited to alternative boards here at NFB. There is a board on TMF called "Moving Out of the Fast Lane" and was started to discuss alternatives to the all-or-nothing work/no-work dichotomy. Most of us talked about quality of life issues, enjoying the "now" along the way to FIRE, downshifting, etc. Just before hocus was kicked out of TMF, he started his anti-REHP rants on THAT board for no apparent reason. The MOOTFL board founder nipped that in the bud rather quickly, and hocus was kicked off of TMF shortly after that.

The last straw for me personally was when I tried to interject some reality checks re: book publishing and promotion. I'm not an expert, but I have done my homework in preparing my own non-fiction book proposals and talking to agents. He dismissed my advice as "goofy." That, and his claim that he was going to devote a chapter to MY story (as written on the TMF boards) on how I was contemplating turning down a promotion without permission from me, turned me off for good. I had advised him that using my posts may be grounds for copyright infringement if he wasn't careful, and he just went off on me and accused me of being part of the intercst conspiracy or something, fair use, blah blah (doesn't it seem a bit silly to be arguing about intellectual property law with, um, an intellectual property lawyer?). He thought I should have been flattered. Uh, no. Intercst is barely on my mental radar, but of course hocus can't be convinced of that. *shrug*


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raddr
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChocoKitty wrote:
The last straw for me personally was when I tried to interject some reality checks re: book publishing and promotion.


I sincerely doubt that there is any imminent hocus book or internet site, nor are there any interviews, newspaper articles, etc. coming soon. These are all part of the rather poorly organized delusional system he is dealing with. I noticed yesterday that his planned internet launch date corresponds to the anniversary of some post of his on the TMF that he considers earth-shattering but that no one else seems to think has much significance. If these aren't delusions of grandeur then I don't know what is. Rolling Eyes


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