What about FIRE websites and books?

Financial Independence/Retire Early -- Learn How!
User avatar
ataloss
**** Heavy Hitter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:00 am

What about FIRE websites and books?

Post by ataloss »

which ones should be included in a FAQ?
Last edited by ataloss on Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have fun.

Ataloss
User avatar
ElSupremo
Admin Board Member
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:53 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Post by ElSupremo »

Greetings ataloss :)

Well to start off I would think gummy's site and Bernstein's would be no brain-ers. :wink:
"The best things in life are FREE!"

www.nofeeboards.com
Dual
* Rookie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:00 am
Location: California

Topic should be sticky

Post by Dual »

Supremo

I suggest topics like this one should be "sticky."

How do you do this? The FAQ just says that the administrator determines whether a user can do it. But the new topic screen does not seem to have an option for it.

Dual
User avatar
Alec
Admin Board Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Crofton, MD

Bylo's

Post by Alec »

I thought Bylo's site was very good.

http://www.bylo.org/saferetr.html

Alec
therealchips
*** Veteran
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:00 am
Location: Henderson, Nevada, USA

Sites of FIRE calculators

Post by therealchips »

Please include sites and URLs for at least two FIRE calculators. This will help people compare the features and results of the calculators. You might also include reviews or assessments of the calculators from NFB people or other sources, commenting on strengths and weaknesses, applicability and caveats.

http://www.capn-bill.com/fire/ Cap'n Bill's FIREcalc, with an implicit strong recommendation from JohnR, I think, in his frequent use of it.

http://www.i-orp.com/ Uses a powerful mathematical optimization technique, linear programming, in deriving its answers.

We might also warn people away from retirement calculators that are over-simplified. No examples come to mind.
He who has lived obscurely and quietly has lived well. [Latin: Bene qui latuit, bene vixit.]

Chips
User avatar
ataloss
**** Heavy Hitter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:00 am

Post by ataloss »

what if we have sort of an annotated list of web sites?

should rehp be included?

would you add the tethorst website?
Have fun.

Ataloss
User avatar
karma
** Regular
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:16 am

Post by karma »

I'm a little confused about not including the Retire Early Homepage (if that is rehp). After all, I looked at the FIRECalc calculator (http://www.capn-bill.com/fire/) and it based on info from that site. Click on "how it works"￾ and scroll down, which is

http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/

if anyone cares. Why exclude information?

Also, I have the Terhorsts' book - which is about the first thing I bought on my FIRE quest. Why not keep an eye on their site? Their lifestyle isn't for everyone, but even a stay at home like me can appreciate it. And "wanderers" would probably enjoy it.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/5315/

karma
hocus
Moderator
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:56 am

Post by hocus »

should rehp be included?

At my web site, I will be including a link to the REHP site but also including a warning to aspiring early retirees that the methodology used in the site's SWR study is invalid.

I understand that a good number here have a hang-up over the word "invalid."But Karma is right to ask the questiion "why exclude information?" There is too much good stuff at the REHP site to permit us not to include a reference to it at a FAQ statement for a FIRE board. On the other hand, it would be irresponsible to include a reference to the site without a warning that the site sets forth claims re SWRs that have been demonstrated to be wildly off the mark of the numbers you get when you look at the historical data (all of it, not some of it).

I think that the way to go is to say what is, that the site and even the SWR study itself has some good info, but that the study's conclusions are way off base. If people don't want to say that the study's methodology is invalid, perhaps there is some other way to get the point across. Perhaps we could just say that the numbers reported in the study are not the numbers that other researchers who looked at the historical data came up with, and that that there is an ongoing debate as to the validity of the methodology used in the study going on at the SWR Research Group board.
User avatar
ElSupremo
Admin Board Member
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:53 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Post by ElSupremo »

Greetings Dual :)
I suggest topics like this one should be "sticky."
How do you do this?

Well you just ask me, which you just did. :wink:Any board that has a moderator, they are the one to ask. These are administrative tasks. This board does not have a moderator so I've been taking care of that stuff. If anyone would like someone here to be "moderator" and if that person would accept that would be fine with me. They would need to be able to check in several times a day.

The only board I care to moderate is the index funds board so that won't change although I won't be listed as "moderator" there. Any other questions concerning the site may be asked on the "NFB" board or my email door is always open. :wink:
"The best things in life are FREE!"

www.nofeeboards.com
User avatar
BenSolar
*** Veteran
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:46 am
Location: Western NC

Post by BenSolar »

ataloss wrote: should rehp be included?


I think definitely 'yes'. There is lots of good stuff there. We might include a disclaimer that at very high valuations (like now :() the trinity/rehp style studies are suspect.

Ben
"Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for." - Epicurus
User avatar
ataloss
**** Heavy Hitter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:00 am

Post by ataloss »

How is this for a start?
**********************

What web sites have FIRE related information?:

Index fund FAQ at NFB
http://nofeeboards.com/docs/faq.html

Gummy Stuff:
http://home.golden.net/~pjponzo/gummy_stuff.htm


Efficient Frontier
http://www.efficientfrontier.com/


Bylo:
http://www.bylo.org/saferetr.html


FIRE calculators

Cap'n Bill's FIREcalc
http://www.capn-bill.com/fire/
Chips: with an implicit strong recommendation from JohnR, I think, in his frequent use of it.

http://www.i-orp.com/
Chips: This calculator uses a powerful mathematical optimization technique, linear programming, in deriving its answers. Some retirement calculators that are over-simplified.

Retire Early Home Page
http://www.retireearlyhomepage.com/
(see footnote)

Vicki and Paul Terhorst Travel, Early Retirement, and Contemplation Page
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/5315/

Trinity Study at AAII:
http://www.aaii.com/promo/mstar/feature.shtml
(see footnote)

AAII:
www.aaii.com
(some information restricted to members)

IRA information:
http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/page/0,,id=12598,00.html
IRA distributions can be taken early if you follow certain rules.

You can receive distributions from your traditional IRA that are part of a series of substantially equal payments over your life (or your life expectancy), or over the lives (or the joint life expectancies) of you and your beneficiary, without having to pay the 10% additional tax, even if you receive such distributions before you are age 59½. You must use an IRS-approved distribution method and you must take at least one distribution annually for this exception to apply. The required minimum distribution method, when used for this purpose, results in the exact amount required to be distributed, not the minimum amount.


FIRE Books

Cashing in on the American Dream: How to Retire at 35
Paul Terhorst
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 553052896/

YMOYL by Dominguez and Robbins
(aka Your Money or Your Life: Transforming Your Relationship With Money and Achieving Financial Independence )
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140286780/
Hyperborea points out that the investing advice in the book is highly questionable. I think people mostly like the other parts.


How to Retire Early and Live Well With Less Than a Million Dollars, Gillette Edmunds
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 580622011/

The Millionaire Next Door, The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko.
Reviews located by Chips:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/st ... xtdoor.htm and
http://www.bookbrowse.com/dyn_/title/titleID/242.htm
http://www.dealtime.com/xMPR-~PD-486536 ... ~RI-985455

Clutter's Last Stand by Don Aslett
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 898791375/

Not for Packrats Only by Don Aslett
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 452265932/

The Joy of Not Working by Ernie Zelinski
Karma: is good for getting you in the right frame of mind. Looks like he is issuing another edition this month.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1580085520/

Get a Life: You Don't Need a Million to Retire Well by Ralph Warner
Dual: The author goes a little bit overboard for my taste, but the emotional/social part of retirement is as important as the financial IMO. The author has a good discussion about how to do volunteering so you don't end up stuffing envelopes and answering phones (unless you want to).


The Intelligent Asset Allocator by Wm. Bernstein
Tuffy88: His first book, about the best index asset allocation book I have read

Common Sense on Mutual Funds by Bogle

Four Pillars by Bernstein

Financial Peace Revisited by Dave Ramsey

Financial Peace Workbook by Dave Ramsey

Smart Couples Finish Rich by David Bach

The Finish Rich Workbook by David Bach

How to get out of debt, stay out of debt & live prosperously
by Jerrold Mundis

Peteyperson: key book to help people clear debt
to start on the path to FIRE - many people cut back to pay off
debt, realise they have spare cash having done that for 2 years
and want to know where to put it. So books on personal finance
lay the groundwork.)

The Richest Man in Babylon
WiseNlucky: "￾had profound impact on me."￾

A Modest Home Study Course from William Bernstein:
http://www.efficientfrontier.com/reading.htm

Investing in Real Estate By andrew Mclean and Gary Eldred
(nice comparison of stock investments vs real estate in the 4th Ed based on current relative dividends/rents)

Make Money with Condominiums and Townhouses
Gary Eldred

footnote:
The Trinity Study and REHP study are based on a time with high real stock returns (in the 6-7% range) There is a significant probability of lower future market returns and lower "safe" withdrawal rates (at least for investors using an S&P 500 or total stock market based approach)

Internet Acronyms
http://www.gaarde.org/acronyms/
http://emoticonuniverse.com/slang/
Last edited by ataloss on Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Have fun.

Ataloss
User avatar
BenSolar
*** Veteran
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:46 am
Location: Western NC

Post by BenSolar »

ataloss wrote: YMOYL by Dominguez and Robbins
(aka Your Money or Your Life: Transforming Your Relationship With Money and Achieving Financial Independence )
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140286780/
Wanderer: I know some may not agree, but he really was central in building the rehp board):


I believe that wanderer made the quote above about hocus and his pre-SWR writing on the TMF REHP board:
(I know some may not agree, but he really was central in building the rehp board): pre-SWR stuff from the artist formerly known as hocus.

From this post.

I agree that there are fabulous posts of his that cut to the heart of why/how to FIRE. Access is a problem, but people can always get a free trial membership to read links if we provided them.
"Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for." - Epicurus
hocus
Moderator
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:56 am

Post by hocus »

Access is a problem, but people can always get a free trial membership to read links if we provided them.

No one in this community should ever feel that he or she cannot read a Motley Fool REHP board post because of the $30 fee charged for admission to those boards. I have a long-term goal of re-building that board and it is important to me to attract Information Seekers back to that community. If there is a poster here who would like to view the REHP board, but is uncertain whether it is worth the $30 fee charged to do so, please send me an e-mail letting me know and I will put your fee on my credit card.

This offer is open only to those with an interest in FIRE issues. It is not to be used to gain access to TMF boards other than the REHP board. My recollection from the last time that I looked into this is that I need an e-mail address and a real name to complete the registeration transaction with Motley Fool.

I expect to be making this offer at my web site when I get it up next year. It is one way that I hope to be able to bring some new blood into the FIRE community and to get the REHP board back on the right track.
User avatar
ataloss
**** Heavy Hitter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:00 am

Post by ataloss »

I believe that wanderer made the quote above about hocus and his pre-SWR writing on the TMF REHP board:


You are right. If someone has links to hocus' greatest pre-swr hits I could include them.
Have fun.

Ataloss
hocus
Moderator
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:56 am

Post by hocus »

If someone has links to hocus' greatest pre-swr hits I could include them.

Please exercise caution when putting together this list, ataloss.

Raddr argues here

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewt ... toss#p2821

that my "Coin Toss" post--one that I did after May, 13, 2002--is "one of the best I've ever seen at any board. " I don't think he would want to be held to a comment made back in the days when smear campaigns were in fashion only at the REHP board.
raddr
*** Veteran
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:25 am
Contact:

Post by raddr »

hocus wrote: If someone has links to hocus' greatest pre-swr hits I could include them.

Please exercise caution when putting together this list, ataloss.

Raddr argues here

http://www.nofeeboards.com/boards/viewt ... toss#p2821

that my "Coin Toss" post--one that I did after May, 13, 2002--is "one of the best I've ever seen at any board. " I don't think he would want to be held to a comment made back in the days when smear campaigns were in fashion only at the REHP board.


hocus,

Your paranoia aside, I still think that your "coin toss" post was one of the best I've ever read on any board. I only wish you would write more like that one rather than what you've written here in recent months.
hocus
Moderator
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:56 am

Post by hocus »

Your paranoia aside, I still think that your "coin toss" post was one of the best I've ever read on any board. I only wish you would write more like that one rather than what you've written here in recent months.

OK, raddr.

I'm encouraged to hear that you still consider the "Coin Toss" post one of the best you have ever read on a message board. That post was one of the key SWR posts. So this idea that the pre-SWR posts are somehow better is obviously more gobblygook intended to confuse and distract people trying to learn about the subject matter of the board.

The Coin Toss post is one of the ones that got the ball rolling. If it hadn't been for the huge postive response that the REHP community provided that post, intercst would not have flipped his lid and none of the smear campaigns that have followed would have ever gotten off the ground. The idea of the smear campaigns was to block the FIRE community's understanding of the ideas in that post (and others). When you hear someone on this board argue that there is nothing new in the SWR claims that have been put forward in the Great Debate, point them to that post. Tell them that in your view the ideas in that post are indeed both new and exciting and that the FIRE community needs to pay attention to them and explore them.

Ask posters who engage in word game and ridicule posts to knock off the funny business so that the entire board community can turn its attention to the exciting new ideas that have come forward as the result of the May 13, 2002, breakthrough. You are a leader here, raddr. I sincerely believe that you can make a difference if you try.

If there is some sort of post that you would prefer not to see me write (you make a reference to "What you have written here in recent months"), please provide me some detail as to what it is you like to see and what it is you do not like to see. My sense is that we are generally in agreement as to what sorts of posts offer the most value. Posts that respond to word game posts are necessary but a drag. I have been working hard to reduce the word game stuff posted here. If I could get some help from you with this, I think we could make progress and both of us could have a board experience a lot more to our liking. Don't sit on your hands when you see others putting up word game posts. Put forward a post of your own asking them to knock it off. We need more of that from you, raddr, and we need it from others too.

If you want to see some more recent posts with the impact of the "Coin Toss" post, take a look at the work that JWR1945. has been doing at the SWR Research Group board. He has been burning down the house with his recent stuff, and your screen-name has been noticably lacking at that board. Roll up your sleeves and get to work, raddr. The entire FIRE community would benefit from your input.

If you are looking for a recent one from me that is not a response to some other poster's word games, take a look at the "My Days at Pizza Hut University" thread. Both the arguments made by Peter Bernstein and those made by John Bogle are worthy of much more discussion than they have thus far received. If you like to see posts of earth-shaking substance, it does no good to wish for the old days when that sort of thing used to be in evidence. It didn't happen in those days by magic. It happned by posters getting off theri duffs and doing the work that needed to be done. JWR1945 is still doing it. hocus is still doing it. I mean nothing personal by this comment, but where have you been of late, raddr? So far as the SWR board is concerned, you have been missing in action.

The work done on these boards matters, raddr. We are providing people information needed to achieve financial independence early in life. I think that the time has come to put an end to the nonsense and get back to the work that these boards were created to facilitate. Let's put aside the whining about pre-swr days and post-swr days and the silly claims of paranoia and all the rest. Let's follow the lead of JWR1945 and do the work that once made these boards a thrill to read. Let's do the work that matters. Let's talk about issues and data and realties and facts. Let's leave the word game and ridicule posts to those who don't have anything more constructive to do with their energies.

Does that proposed agenda sound at all appealing to you?
raddr
*** Veteran
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:25 am
Contact:

Post by raddr »

I mean nothing personal by this comment, but where have you been of late, raddr? So far as the SWR board is concerned, you have been missing in action.


I didn't know that I was required to participate on the SWR board. :lol:

When I have an idea to share on FIRE issues, including SWR's, I choose to post it on the FIRE board or, if more appropriate, on the Index funds board. That is where I landed after TMF and MSN and I consider both forums home and feel most comfortable there.

FWIW, I'm working on a series of SWR-related topics that I hope to post on the Web and link to here, hopefully by the end of the year. I'll of course post links here.
User avatar
ataloss
**** Heavy Hitter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:00 am

Post by ataloss »

FWIW, I'm working on a series of SWR-related topics that I hope to post on the Web and link to here, hopefully by the end of the year. I'll of course post links here.


That would be great! The demise of the msn boards has ruined some of the old threads on this board that had nice linked graphics.

I am hoping that hocus will post something interesting (it is hard to find the old threads at TMF and some people (ES) want to avoid that place)
Have fun.

Ataloss
User avatar
ataloss
**** Heavy Hitter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:00 am

Post by ataloss »

Ok I found the Coin Toss post(68285). This perplexes me:
I know that there have been some who have been perplexed when I have argued that there is not one safe withdrawal rate, but many, that the safe withdrawal rate varies according to the personal circumstances of the particular investor at issue. 6/20/02

(posted 6 weeks after the post that changed the world)

since hocus simultaneously maintains that:
If we had perfect data, we could calculate the SWR perfectly. It is a mathematical construct. You take all the numbers for all the factors that influence the question, you add them up, and you have the answer. It is an objective exercise. Hocus 7/18/03


seems confused to me :wink:
Have fun.

Ataloss
Post Reply