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ataloss
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:39 am    Post subject: post 10,000 Reply with quote

I noticed it was at 9999 on the view forum page before this one, what a milestone for nfb! Thanks ES. best boards available!

(although this post is not # 10,000)



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings ataloss Smile

Hey that's great! Let me know when we get to 10,000 members! Wink



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ataloss
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have a way to go on 10k members Rolling Eyes



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JWR1945
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peteyperson on the FIRE board wrote post 10000 in his thread FIREd: How did you get there? on Fri Aug 15, 2003 at 7:12 pm CDT.
http://nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=10000#10000

Now that I have gone through the trouble of finding this post the hard way, I realize that there is a very easy way to find it. Everything before the post number is standard:

"http://nofeeboards.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p="

All that you have to do is add the number "10000#10000".

Have fun.

John R.


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wanderer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed it was at 9999 on the view forum page before this one, what a milestone for nfb! Thanks ES. best boards available!

this was impressive to me, too, ataloss.

About 3.5 days later, we are at 10,160 posts. Almost 50 posts a day. Hard to believe. But it does seem like more folks milling about lately. Nice to see new blood and new posters.



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings wanderer Smile
Quote:
Nice to see new blood and new posters.

I see it as a little snowball rolling down a hill. It starts out very small, then as time goes by it picks up speed and gets bigger. Eventually it will be an avalanche! Shocked

Just remember it was you folks who were here at the beginning that made it happen. Very Happy



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wanderer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just remember it was you folks who were here at the beginning that made it happen.

es - and i have dialed back considerably. some white trash kentuckian is soon to pass me on number of posts. Wink



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings wanderer Smile
Quote:
some white trash kentuckian is soon to pass me on number of posts

LOL ROTFL!!! LaughingLaughingLaughing That "white trash Kentuckian" your speaking of has been one of my best friends and closest confidants in my many years on the net. He was around long before I showed up at the original board and is the most reliable human I've ever known. It takes about a decade or so to figure out his sense of humor but once you do you can appreciate what a special person he really is. He passed me up long ago in investment knowledge and even though I still scratch my head at some of his strategies( Confused) he's one of the smartest hicks I know! Wink

Oh yea ya'll, he don't live in no Kentucky neither! Wink



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[KenM]
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ES
Do you have A Grand Plan for NFB or are you just letting it evolve Question

50 boards? 1000 users?



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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Ken Smile
Quote:
Do you have A Grand Plan for NFB or are you just letting it evolve


Well my original Grand Plan was just to have a place we could exchange our ideas and pal around without having to pay a fee. Then I thought why not let everyone who wants be able to share in our good fortune. After almost a year here at NFB I see us coming to a crossroads of sorts. Do we want a site solely devoted to financial discussion? Or a place where anyone can have a board for any subject. As you say this might just evolve and I think time will solve the mystery. For now we have everything I had envisioned way back on the old index funds board. And IMO it will only get better as we look to the future!



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hocus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After almost a year here at NFB, I see us coming to a crossroads of sorts. Do we want a site solely devoted to financial discussion? Or a place where anyone can have a board for any subject?

TMF had long internal debates about this question before it adopted the policy of permitting non-financial boards. An argument in favor ot the policy they adopted of permitting non-financial boards is that it opens the financial boards up to perspective that otherwise would not be available to them. Right now, we don't have much to offer posters with no pre-existing interest in either Index Funds or FIRE. So it's likely that most of the community members here are from one of a limited number of types. If we expanded the range of board offerings, we would get a broader mix. I want to spread the idea of FIRE to as many people as possible. So I love hearing what people who have never been exposed to the idea think about it. From than angle, a broadening of the scope of offerings looks to be a good thing.

In the case of TMF, it has turned into a bit of a disaster, however. It appears to me that TMF has done market research showing that they needed to dumb down their boards to attract enough participants to make money at the board hosting business. Their marketing slogan for the boards is "Good Friends, Smart People." Notice how the friends part comes first and the smart part last? Their focus is now on the social aspects of the boards rather than the learning together aspect. I believe that that is one reason why they supported intercst in The Great Debate, despite his many violations of the posting rules. Intercst puts great emphasis on the social aspects of the board experience and almost none on the learning together aspects.

That's why her puts up insulting posts. The idea is to get people angry and cause social interaction, the way that radio shock jocks do. Nas90skog has put up some good posts at the REHP board on the intercst strategy. He doesn't even link to the REHP board anymore at his web site; I don't think he wants people there talking about early retirement, and people coming from his site would likely have an interest in that subject. Instead, he goes to the Political Assylum and tried to interest posters there into coming to the REHP board. The idea is to get a fight started and generate posting that way.

That's very much in line with what appears to the be TMF policy for building their discussion board business. The published rules include all sorts of high-minded statements about how TMF boards are different from others on the internet in that they will not tolerate abusive posting practices. That stuff used to be true. The TMF boards really were different in the days before they started charging, and they still are a bit different because of holdover effects from those days. But the trend in the past two years has been to encourage more of the intercst type posters, people who deliberately inflame the communities and thereby brings in dollars for TMF. You can see evidence of this strategy by comparing the types of posts that appeared on the "Best Of" list in the summer of 2000 with the type that appear there today. Today, the majority of "best of" posts contain some sort of profanity or personal attack.

There was a funny post at the REHP board this morning where a poster there said that he was heading over to NFB to read up on SWRs. He indicated that he does not like the SWR debate, but said that he found it preferable to the debate that is the focus of attention at the REHP now, whether hateful jokes about gays should be permitted on the board. He noted that, when I posted at the REHP board, at least the circular debates that were held there were on-topic circular debates.

The problem that this poster is facing is that the intercst strategy for building the board is in line with the Motley Fool strategy. I believe that Motley Fool (and perhaps intercst too) is really of two minds on the issue. I think that Motley Fool would like to have on-topic debates at their boards. I get the sense that they don't like the way that the shock jock strategy reflects on their corporate image. But they want to bring in eyeballs, and it appears to me that they have done research indicating that the numbers of people with a strong enough interest in substance is not high enough to support a financially successful board system that imposes rules requiring reasoned debate.

My impression is that Motley Fool is facing a dilemma. They would prefer that the boards be used for learning together. But it takes awhile to build a community interested primarily in learning, and they don't seem to think that they have much time before they need to generate more revenue. They are aiming to take a middle road, where they permit both learning together and shock jock stuff. But the two approaches are like oil and water. Each time a "board general" like intercst turns to shock jock stuff to keep his numbers up, it drives the reasoned posters away. It becomes a vicious cycle. The more junk you promote, the more junky are the posters you attract. The more junky the posters, the less the informed posters want anything to do with the board.

Anyway, I would like to see up open the boards a bit to non-financial stuff. Boards taking an informed look at things like history or culture or science or whatever could bring in posters that would have something to add to the financial boards too down the line. But I think we need at the same time to be wary of the risk of following the TMF path and becoming so desperate for any type of poster that we aim to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator type community member. What made TMF special in its glory days is that it was the one message board community where reasoned debate was possible and where intercst types were not tolerated. I think that intercst types should be permitted to post here, I don't favor exclusion of them. But I would not like to see us taking steps to encourage too many of that type to come here to the point where we become overrun with them and come to offer just another clown board experience as is available at so many other places on the internet.


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aedelswil2429
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry about that, but I can't resist:
hocus wrote:

...
The more junk you promote, the more junky are the posters you attract.
...


are post with hundreds, or even thousends, of words, but nil information to be considered "junk" ?

take care and index on

philipp


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ElSupremo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Hocus Smile
Quote:
But I think we need at the same time to be wary of the risk of following the TMF path and becoming so desperate for any type of poster that we aim to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator type community member

We have one huge advantage that TMF does not have, money is not a concern. So no matter what I see our steady growth continuing and we won't ever have to screw our members to keep it that way.

On a side note I'd like to make a comment to you hocus. This is just an observation and just my opinion so in the grand scheme of things it means little. I've been reading your posts for a while now and I've seen everything that's happened over the past year. If you could find a way to somehow forget about Intercst and just be hocus, I believe you would be one of the finest posters I've ever read. Your previous post proves my point. If you strip away all that intercst and REHP crap what's left is almost magical. If that were ever to happen IMO your stock would rise exponentially.

I've kept this to myself and will never mention it again, but I just wanted you to know how I feel in an attempt that one more unbiased opinion might make a difference for you. That's all I have to say about that. Wink



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hocus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you could find a way to somehow forget about Intercst and just be hocus, I believe you would be one of the finest posters I've ever read.

Thanks, ES.


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ataloss
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ES, I think the site is great as it is, Badger Boy Staters and all. Smile I think you have struck a good balance wrt the number of boards. I saw some people set up elaborate boards at msn with dozens of sub-boards but no one ever posted on some of them. We have a town center for non-financial issues. Unless there is need for a blackjack board Wink I can't think of what we are missing.



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wanderer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WARNING: looong post

Anyway, I would like to see up open the boards a bit to non-financial stuff. Boards taking an informed look at things like history or culture or science or whatever could bring in posters that would have something to add to the financial boards too down the line.

one thing I notice in the hocus civil wars is how both sides over state their case, IMO. IMO, hocus is waaay off base in his sloppy, haughty prose and his claims to earth shattering insights. He has alienated precisely the people he will need to move the ball forward. OTOH, folks who say he contributes nothing or focus on minor points are wrong, also, big time, IMO. if you don't believe me, you should take a look at his older stuff and you can see why his soapbox report outsold intercst's 5:1 even though it cost 3X as much (correct these stats if I'm wrong, hocus).

the above quote is indeed something I think needs to take place here. why? because the year 2000 was a high point for FIRE wannabes. Why? Because oddballs and weirdos were entering the saloon from every direction. Yours truly included. It might surprise some of you to know that at one point I posted almost exclusively on the softer side of FIRE. In fact, I was the first person to coin the term "FIRE" and I did so in a particularly softheaded post elsewhere. (One of the great things about the old board is that we attracted, among others an ORACLE wonk [ptsurmr] who developed a search function that determined that I was the person who coined that particular phrase. One of the things that caused me to abandon that site was the driving off of that useful poster.)

The infusion of soft side folks needs to take place here not because this place is deficient but because it will make this place hum even more. For example, having raddr (just picking on him, no slight to others intended) here where only 100-200 people see him is like stashing the Mona Lisa in your attic. not only that, raddr will benefit, because these softer issues will get his creative computational juices flowing and we'll come up with another 50 ways to skin the FIRE cat/identify risks we haven't seen yet/become even more motivated, etc.

And soft-side doesn't just mean arts and humanities, but hard science folks who, as they are finding out daily in Dilbert-land, have to become conversant in the strange language of personal finance because FIRE is a "make your own" affair. Like the gentleman (ptsurmr) I mentioned above. This is a "second shift" activity and one this place would be ideal for them to hook into - sensible, efficient, effective, creative.

Now, I do this sort of eclectic thing naturally: take a little here, a little there, tape it, staple it, glue it and come up with something different. Which might or might not work, but which usually does seem to work (i think) because it has, at its base, stuff that makes sense for us in our particular circumstances. I would like a bit more of that soft stuff here. OK, a lot more of it. It gets my juices flowing.

Just an example, one thing I do is read stuff outside of finance and accounting. Inspirational stuff, history, science, philosophy, etc. One fellow who has become a hero of sorts to me is the Carthaginian general Hannibal. I found out today that, rather than surrender, Hannibal committed suicide.

The treaty between Rome and Carthage that was concluded a year after the Battle of Zama frustrated the entire object of Hannibal's life, but his hopes of taking arms once more against Rome lived on. Although accused of having misconducted the war, he was made a suffete (a civil magistrate) in addition to retaining his military command, and as suffete he was able to overthrow the power of the oligarchic governing faction at Carthage and bring about certain administrative and constitutional changes. He thus became unpopular with a certain faction of the Carthaginian nobility, and, according to Livy, he was denounced to the Romans as inciting Antiochus III of Syria to take up arms against the Romans. Hannibal fled to the court of Antiochus at Ephesus (195), where he was welcome at first, since Antiochus was preparing war with Rome. Soon, however, the presence of Hannibal and the sound advice he gave concerning the conduct of the war became a source of embarrassment, and he was sent to raise and command a fleet for Antiochus in the Phoenician cities. Inexperienced as he was in naval matters, he was defeated by the Roman fleet off Side, in Pamphylia. Antiochus was defeated on land at Magnesia in 190, and one of the terms demanded of him by the Romans was that Hannibal should be surrendered. Again accounts of Hannibal's subsequent actions vary; either he fled via Crete to the court of King Prusias of Bithynia,or he joined the rebel forces in Armenia. Eventually he took refuge with Prusias, who at this time was engaged in warfare with Rome's ally, King Eumenes II of Pergamum. He served Prusias in this war, and, in one of the victories he gained over Eumenes at sea, it is said that he threw cauldrons of snakes into the enemy vessels.

Finally the Romans by unknown means put themselves in a position to demand the surrender of Hannibal. Unable this time to escape, Hannibal poisoned himself in the Bithynian village of Libyssa. The year is uncertain but was probably 183.

source: Encyclopaedia Brittanica.

Can you imagine the entire object of your life (as a youth, father made Hannibal swear undying enmity toward Rome) being thwarted? (I think FIRE wannabes can.) Lesser men and women would have curled up and died. Not this guy: he keeps throwing bombs (or, at least, cauldrons of snakes). (I think most FIRE wannabes would - keep throwing bombs, not snakes, that is.)

Some life: threatening to topple the despotic Roman regime using ingenious military stratagems, ultimately defeated by overwhelming resources, refusing to be bought off by a chintzy title and entourage, fighting to the last, and refusing to surrender. Heck, this guy gives Bernstein a run for his money. Wink

FIRE tie in:

I think a lot of FIRE wannabes possess the spirit that Hannibal embodied - sworn enemies of that which is false and despotic (and anything that robs one's life energy pointlessly would qualify), ingenious, creative, cunning, a little too big for our britches at times, self-respecting (freedom loving?), unable to be bought off in the traditional ways, etc.

I'm no expert on ancient civilization/societies or psychology or any number of other areas bearing on this, but I like a good (inspirational, useful today) biography and this guy's resume fits the bill. Maybe the new guy, tuffy, can shed some light...



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ChocoKitty
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wanderer, bingo.

CK
(fellow soft side poster)


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karma
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="wanderer"]WARNING: looong post

I would like a bit more of that soft stuff here. OK, a lot more of it. It gets my juices flowing.

I am very encouraged to see this. I was wondering if I had wandered Wink into the mathematical retire early group. Nothing wrong with doing the math, but I think there is a lot more to retiring early than figuring out your SWR (can't remember what the "S" is - "silly", maybe). There is a whole psychological aspect of mentally preparing yourself to take the jump, and it doesn't have anything to do with numbers.

When I get a chance, maybe I'll post more "soft" stuff on the FIRE board, if that's the right place for it.

karma


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WiseNLucky
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would like a bit more of that soft stuff here. OK, a lot more of it. It gets my juices flowing.


I, too, like the softer stuff. With a science degree and a business degree, I took enough math and statistics to understand most of the math work here even if I could not create it myself. But I think the much larger effect on portfolios will involve the soft stuff -- how much to save, how much to spend, very basic asset allocation, how to face the natural human tendencies we all have to shoot ourselves in the foot. Without the softer issues I would have little to contribute.

I would like to stay away from the very emotional issues though. I am emotional myself (sorry for the use of "visceral" in another post) and I try not to pander to that part of myself. I can't just participate on a logical level or ignore the discussion altogether.

Hocus will disagree, in fact he has disagreed with me on this topic in the past, but I fear that his emotions about rehp and intercst do him injustice here on this board. When I see a post like his above, with hundreds of words and nine bolded intercsts, I run from it. There might be something of real value in there but I can't get past the emotion.

But I like the exchange of ideas and will keep trying to get all I can out of everyone's posts. I like seeing new people come in. I like seeing ChocoKitty posting again. I like knowing that Oliver is around because I'm sure that I'm going to know enough about bonds some day to ask an intelligent question. All of the real estate people, the retirees, small cappers, fellow accountants, boring investment club folks and even itinerant Kentuckyans.

I guess I just like it here.



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hocus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should take a look at his older stuff

I'm Paul McCartney and I just wrote a great song called "Hey Jude" and can't wait to share it with people. But there's this guy in the back of the room who keeps calling out for me to play "Can't Buy Me Love." What a drag.

I love the soft side stuff, Wanderer. I feel about that stuff the way that McCartney feels about "Can't Buy Me Love." I hope that you and ChocoKitty and lots of others pursue it in great depth and that I learn from what you all do.

But there is only one of me and there are only so many hours in a day. I think you greatly underestimate the value of the SWR work I have done. I think that is my best stuff ever. You don't see it now, perhaps because you just have not had an opportunity to explore the issues in depth. I think in time you will. If you never do, I think others will. I don't think that I am overstating things when I say that a good number of the insights that have followed from the May 13, 2002, post will prove to be earth-shaking in their impact. To know for sure we are just going to have to wait and see how it plays out.

I can't see tearing myself away from the SWR stuff at a time when the efforts of the past 15 months are bearing such luscious fruit. But that does not mean that others should not feel free to do so. My personal view is that both the REHP board and the FIRE board have spent too much time on SWRs to the detriment of soft side stuff that could have been explored instead.

The answer to our troubles lies in the message of that ES post that sits at the top of the pile at the FIRE board. ES tells us that we need to learn to agree to disagree. That hits the nail on the head, in my view. Those who want to pursue the soft side stuff should do that, and those who want to pursue the SWR stuff should do that, and both groups should try to stop worrying so much about what the other group is doing.

If the work being done at the SWR Research Group board never changes the world, I will be disappointed. But I won't lay down and die. In the event that unfortunate outcome comes to pass, we all will be better off if there were people like you and ChocoKitty and others pursuing the soft side stuff at the same time that me and JWR1945 and any anyone else interested was pursuing the SWR stuff. It's better for the whole FIRE community that we not feel that we need all to direct all of our energies to a single issue for an extended period of time.

I like the soft side stuff and I like the SWR stuff. I wrote about soft side stuff when I thought that the timing was right for me to do that, and now I write about SWR stuff because I think that the timing now is right for me to do that. I may change back at some later date. The important thing is the overall health of the FIRE commumity, and I think adding some more soft side stuff to the mix of topics would be a healthy thing in that regard. There obviously are some community members who would be more inclined to participate if there were more of that stuff, and we should be doing what we can to keep those people interested and involved.

The key, I think, is for people to reach a point at which they take the SWR stuff in stride, just as they do the soft side stuff. I think the SWR stuff is going to change the world of FIRE investing in time. But it is not going to change the world this afternoon. So people should lower the temperature readings a few notches. The SWR stuff is important, but it is not life or death. People should read the SWR stuff for insights, but not worry so much if there are some things said in some of the posts that are not entirely in accord with how they thought successful FIRE investing worked up until May 13, 2002.

What I would like to see is for everybody to calm down a bit. Some people have more interest in the SWR issue at this time and others have more interest in soft side stuff. That's good, that's healthy, that's not a problem. It only becomes a problem when some feel a need to tell others what to post about. We all are in this together and we all benefit from the insights put forward by fellow community members. We all need to try to see that Learning Together is a process and that you can't make it happen on a schedule.

My bet is that a year from now there will be a lot more people seeing the long-term benefits of exploration of the realities of SWRs. But perhaps my bet will turn out to be a bad one. A good part of the fun of this thing is reading the posts as they go up, watching the reactions, and wondering how it all is going to play out in the end. So we need to just do that and not worry so much that we are not able to come to a 100 percent consensus in the space of 24 hours.

The ideas that I have put forward re SWRs are Big Ideas. People do not adapt to big changes in their way of thinking about things in the space of a day or a week or a month or even a year. Give people time. There are lots of positive signs that give me cause for optimism. So I think that the thing to hope for is that each board member explore the topics that he or she has the greatest interest in and accept that there are other community members interested in other sorts of things. That's the best way to tap into the true long-term power of community.


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