Update on TMF Retire Early Board Saga

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hocus
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Update on TMF Retire Early Board Saga

Post by hocus »

I promised this group that I would provide updates of significant developments in the saga of the TMF Retire Early board. Here's a link to my latest (and last for awhile) post on the matter.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=18233436

I appreciate the enhancement to my knowledge of the safe withdrawal rate question that I have attained in my visits to this community (expecially those provided by raddr). I hope that I will be able to persuade more than one or two of you to participate at the TMF board when it begins its Safe Withdrawal Rate Debate, Phase Two, sometime after the weather begins to get warm again.
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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo »

Greetings Hocus :)
I hope that I will be able to persuade more than one or two of you to participate at the TMF board when it begins its Safe Withdrawal Rate Debate, Phase Two, sometime after the weather begins to get warm again.


By the time the weather gets warm my "free" year at TMF will have long expired. Believe me I won't shed a tear.

I hope you'll be able to spend time with us as well.
"The best things in life are FREE!"

www.nofeeboards.com
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

mhtyler puts it well...

I'm commenting at the request of hocus, but the opinion is my own. I don't come to this board now that I've joined a moderated FIRE board that encourages open discussion, but restricts the negativity.

The folks remaining here seem to think things are dandy, I didn't, and so I left...game over.

If you're on the fence about it, try FIRE at nofeeboards.com. Its a nice place where discussion is open and free. You're happy here? Bully for you.

hocus would like to reform this board, and I think there's legitimate cause and reason. I took the Pilgrim's path, and found a new land. In any case MF plans to charge money to exchange messages and I think that's a silly idea.

i like that.

wanderer, stranger in a strange land...
Last edited by wanderer on Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
hocus
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Post by hocus »

ES:

I much appreciate what people have done to set this place up. The tone and subject matter is so much better than at the TMF Retire Early board as things stand today that it is silly to make a comparison. But I have deep roots in that community, and I suspect that they will have to put up a sign declaring it officially dead before I give up trying to save it. I've tried to talk myself into doing that dozens of times, and it just doesn't seem that the ability to do that exists inside me.

I did make a proposal to Motley Fool last week that was a variation of the proposal that GritsGuru put forward on that board last week. My idea was that TMF could create what they call a "Graveyard site" (one that provides reading ability, but not the other sorts of functionality) of the old Retire Early board posts and provide a link to the "Post Archives" on each post put up at a new board on "Financial Independence."

The two things I don't want to lose access to over there are the people with an interest in the subject who have congregated at the current board, and the work product that that community has produced over the past three years. The work product, of course, is the 84,000 posts.

The community members who are looking for a more open-minded approach would presumably be happy to follow me to a new board. So I don't see much of a problem with that aspect. But I hate the idea of giving up three year's worth of community work product. I don't mind the intercst group having access to it, but I think that the segment of the community that wants to play by TMF posting rules rather than intercst posting rules have an equal claim to use of any work product compiled before any new board is opened.

Also, there really are a lot of people who congregate there (in lurk status) with a desire to know the realities of safe withdrawal rates. There are at least 46 of them, that's one of the key points of the post I put up today. Since those 46 people congregate there, why shouldn't I talk to them about subjects of mutual interest, regardless of what intercst thinks of the idea? It's not like his camp is going to come up with some new nasty word to direct at me. I've heard it all at this point, and the attack stuff just has less and less impact the more often it is used.

I'd like it if the board were operated differently, of course. But I accept the world the way it is, and try to make the best of it. I see value in the post archive there and in the 46 posters wanting to hear about the realities. So I plan to just continue working my way through the muck to get my message to them (after expiration of a suitable cooling-off period).

As for this place, I hope I can contribute from time to time. I have great respect for the people congregated here. It's not my first Retire Early board, and I have limited time to spend posting, like everyone else. But I am thrilled that this place exists, and if we reach a point where the open-minded 46 give up and come over here, then I'll be here with them. I have nothing at all against this place, I just can't give up on the old place until there is zero hope. I don't think things are quite that bad yet.

I do hope that folks here will help us make the case re safe withdrawal rates next summer. I know it will cost you $30, but it will be worth it, and the good guys really need your help. As the time gets closer, I'll make a stronger pitch.
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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo »

Hi again Hocus :)
Also, there really are a lot of people who congregate there (in lurk status) with a desire to know the realities of safe withdrawal rates. There are at least 46 of them


I completely understand. We had the same situation on the old index funds board. But our lurker count was well over 100. When we pulled out I received over 200 emails in response. Many of those same folks lurk here to this day.

I wish you all the best in your difficult task that lies ahead.
"The best things in life are FREE!"

www.nofeeboards.com
hocus
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Post by hocus »

Thanks, ES
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

hocus - "expecially those provided by raddr"

i'd add jwr, but i think you may have been aware of his fine work. thanks, john, you and raddr and teh rest are real assets.

wanderer
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

hocus -

someone here mentioned you expending your efforts here might be more fruitful. i have to agree.

my understanding of copyright is that whoever created the works has a copyright and, as long as we link back to tmf on the key posts by non posters here, wouldn't that be enuf under fair use? or no?

maybe you could work something out like that with tmf.

we seem to be having some success inviting folks from tmf over here. selectively and non-poachingly, but the dissatisfaction by the lurkers is palpable over there, imo.

btw, anyone seen andrew61? that guy and i see eye to eye on the travel bug...

anyyway, hocus, pleez remember,

"There's no success like failure, and failure is no success at all." --Love Minus Zero/No Limit

wanderer
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
hocus
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Post by hocus »

I'd add jwr, but i think you may have been aware of his fine work.

I do not want anyone to think that I was slighting JWR's work in any way. The difference is that I had seen the work he has posted here before it was posted here. So it wasn't this place that made me aware of it. The raddr stuff I simply would not have known about had this community not been set up recently.
hocus
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Post by hocus »

hocus, pleez remember,

"There's no success like failure, and failure is no success at all." --Love Minus Zero/No Limit

Isn't that quote too perfect for this situation? I have had that quote on my TMF profile for three years now. It's like God had me choose it just so that I could get a laugh when this situation turned up. I believed in God before I knew the truth about safe withdrawal rates, but much of what has happened in this "debate" has enhanced my confidence on this point. I don't quite want to tell you that it is "100 percent safe" to believe, but....

my understanding of copyright is that whoever created the works has a copyright and, as long as we link back to tmf on the key posts by non posters here, wouldn't that be enuf under fair use? or no?

My understanding is that we are permitted to provide links to anything we care to. I don't believe a copyright issue comes into play so long as you link the material and do not set it forth in a new environment. Obviously, there are links to all sorts of things on the TMF boards. So if links raised a copyright issue, all sorts of things would be problemattic.

That doesn't address my issue with the TMF Retire Early board, however. To me the issue is quite clear, but I have to acknowledge that not many others see it as clearly as I do. MY concern is over the community over there that wants to hear the truth about this stuff. Now, if I look about me two months from now, and every single soul over there interested in knowing the realities of SWRs has moved to this place, then I go along with the notion that it is a waste of my energies to post there anymore. I'm not interested in having a conversation with myself.

If that happens, it happens. It is beyond my control. My preference is that it not happen, but I would certainly not advise anyone over there that they are making a mistake to make the switch. Each community member has to decide for himself or herself how to make best use of his or her time. By no means am I saying that I am certain that I made the best use of mine. I did what feels right in my heart, and it's important to me that I do that. But there are few that have the sort of history with the TMF Retire Early board that I do. My first post came only a few weeks after the first post by interest.

I will not cry when the RE board gives up the ghost. But I do not feel good about taking some personal action that will cause it to give up the ghost sooner. Others can do that, and I will not fault them. When the board is dead, it may be that I will feel a liberated feeling. So I'm not complaining that people are leaving, I think that's a sensible thing to do given the circumstances. I just feel bound to say whatever words I can say that are honest words to stop it from happening.

It's like if you discovered that your brother had committed a crime. You don't turn him in, do you? You plead with him to make a change, maybe you say a prayer that someone else turns him in before he commits the crime again. But I don't think that most people would be too quick to turn in a brother. My relationship with the TMF board is intense because I had so many good times there.
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Post by raddr »

hocus,

Glad to see you back!
I appreciate the enhancement to my knowledge of the safe withdrawal rate question that I have attained in my visits to this community (expecially those provided by raddr).


I greatly enjoyed discussing SWR's but it probably would not have happened anytime soon if you hadn't shown your interest in the topic.

I really hope you'll come back here from time to time. I plan on looking at more aspects of SWRs and would like for you to participate. Unfortunately, like ES, I don't plan on paying the fee and going back to TMF anytime soon so I won't be able to check out your new site.
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my rehp reply

Post by mhtyler »

Well Wanderer already quoted me, but I'll just add that at 48 I'm less interested in reform than I used to be.

I've been with MF for some time now, and they extended me a 1 year freebie, so as I pointed out there are plenty of other boards there to choose from where the atmosphere isn't so heavy. This FIRE board though fills all the gaps because LBYM, RE, fixed income etc...is all about accumulating wealth so you can sit on your assets...FIRE.


cheers,
mark
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ataloss
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Post by ataloss »

Glad to see you here hocus. I posted at TMF but I am not optimistic. Several of the responses to your thoughtful post were of the I'm not reading a hocus post variety. Reminds me of kids covering their ears and shouting to avoid hearing something.
Have fun.

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wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

I'll just add that at 48 I'm less interested in reform than I used to be

i'm glad you're here, mark.

i've probably had that approach since my mid twenties. stopped attempting to control that which i couldn't. now i focus on my limited circle of control.

for example, i expect you will see nil posts from me complaining about how expensive/inaccessible health care is in the states. my response is to SOLVE the problem. of the literally hundreds of posts elsewhere, almost none addressed the mechanisms to DEAL with the problem. the few that did stick out in my mind: work at a catalog company during xmas season for full year benes, relocate overseas to a universal care location, become a student, return to my wife's homeland (canada), continue working, take very good care of my health in the meantime, etc. I have adopted a combo of these in my approach.

Maybe we should have a series of mini-synopses for the FAQ/library. No, I am not volunteering.:wink:

wanderer
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

for example, i expect you will see nil posts from me complaining about how expensive/inaccessible health care is in the states. my response is to SOLVE the problem. of the literally hundreds of posts elsewhere, almost none addressed the mechanisms to DEAL with the problem. the few that did stick out in my mind: work at a catalog company during xmas season for full year benes, relocate overseas to a universal care location, become a student, return to my wife's homeland (canada), continue working, take very good care of my health in the meantime, etc. I have adopted a combo of these in my approach.

having said this, i am intrigued that no one found responding to my post on overseas health care resources worthy of comment. iirc, one of those thai hospitals was written up in business week for (good) quality of care.

perhaps our openness [relative to other Yanks] to OL is this unique. If so, it appears we should have nil competition for shelter and health care in these locales. If one demands US services and the supply is constricted, well, the effect is predictable.

different strokes...

wanderer
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
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