so maybe we should feel sorry for trolls?

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ataloss
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so maybe we should feel sorry for trolls?

Post by ataloss » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:03 am

The Game of Trolling
Trolling is like playing chess - there is a point to the game, and that point is to win. Unlike chess, though, there are various ways of winning for the internet Troll. These might include:
gaining credence for false and invidious ideas
driving bona fide list members, and/or particular groups, out of the mailing list
dominating the list with messages/posts that they have generated
gaining recognition or an award for their Trolling from fellow Trollers
getting reprimanded by individuals, list managers or internet authorities
gaining the confidence, trust and support of bona fide list members
distracting list members from their own bona fide discussions or objectives.
gaining attention that they cannot get using their real personalities


http://www.reffalt.com/troll.html
Have fun.

Ataloss

WiseNLucky
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Post by WiseNLucky » Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:54 am

Ataloss and wanderer,

I love you guys to death, but threads like this one don't benefit the community. Your current signatures don't help either. Can't you please just let this thing go, and see if other posters won't do the same? :?

ES, feel free to delete this post if you think it's inappropriate or makes the situation worse. I deleted another one on a different thread myself. I think you are doing a great job trying to referee.

Edit: By the way, I don't remember giving those people the right to post my photograph on their website. :shock:
WiseNLucky

I just wish everyone could step back and get less car and less house then they want, and realize they don't NEED more. -- NeuroFool

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karma
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Post by karma » Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:28 am

Folks - I have to agree with WiseNLucky. If you truly believe there is troll activity, any response is a win for the troll.

When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.


http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WCBD

The best way to undo the damage that a troll has caused is to ignore it and post lots of interesting and on topic stuff. I understand that the hardest thing to do is see someone misinterpret what you have said - a common troll technique. I think you all just have to let it go and avoid reading the posts that get your dander up. Sensible people know when they are reading tosh. Besides, think of how pathetic being a troll is. Getting enjoyment out of the misery of others.

ES - I feel for you. When raddr's page is ready, maybe that'll deflect things.

karma

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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo » Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:05 am

Greetings WiseNLucky & Karma :)

W&L:
threads like this one don't benefit the community

Well posts like yours DO benefit the community! Thank you W&L! :D

Karma:
When raddr's page is ready, maybe that'll deflect things.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I agree completely. Raddrs section is ready to go! Just waiting for him to name it! :D
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Post by ataloss » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:19 am

my former signature was a paraphrase of what had been said to me on on another thread but I have chahged it. Engaging in responses to the wasn't very productive. :wink:
Have fun.

Ataloss

WiseNLucky
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Post by WiseNLucky » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:58 am

KenM is light years ahead of many. IMHO, he is light years ahead of most.
jwr1945 and ataloss


Now THAT's a signature :!::D
WiseNLucky

I just wish everyone could step back and get less car and less house then they want, and realize they don't NEED more. -- NeuroFool

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ataloss
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Post by ataloss » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:54 am

got to try to get kenm back here asap
Have fun.

Ataloss

therealchips
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Post by therealchips » Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:02 pm

When raddr's page is ready . . .


It is ready. Have you posted there? raddr and I and my friend Polly seem to be monopolizing the conversation although I wouldn't at all mind if you interrupt. :D
He who has lived obscurely and quietly has lived well. [Latin: Bene qui latuit, bene vixit.]

Chips

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ataloss
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More on new members knowing nothing

Post by ataloss » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:32 pm

Clearly TH hasn't read and would have no reason to care about the 18 months of nonsense that we went through with hocus on this board. Similarly please excuse me for my lack of interest in his thoughts on getting along based on what he has seen in a couple of days.

He would not appreciate that ES's request to take swr discussions to the hocus sub-board sounds a lot like what hocus was demanding before he was banned.

Further hocus claims that he didn't delete many posts at his sub-board but if anyone reads the welcome to the board message that I have been citing the threat is there for disagreeing with his interpretation of something.
The bottom line is you choose whether or not to read what anyone writes, how you react to it, and what you do as a result.


exactly, and I will seek out other places to post to diversify. I have been over committed here.

The Game of Trolling
Trolling is like playing chess - there is a point to the game, and that point is to win. Unlike chess, though, there are various ways of winning for the internet Troll. These might include:
gaining credence for false and invidious ideas
driving bona fide list members, and/or particular groups, out of the mailing list
dominating the list with messages/posts that they have generated
gaining recognition or an award for their Trolling from fellow Trollers
getting reprimanded by individuals, list managers or internet authorities
gaining the confidence, trust and support of bona fide list members
distracting list members from their own bona fide discussions or objectives.
gaining attention that they cannot get using their real personalities


http://www.reffalt.com/troll.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

http://lostcityofartists.bravepages.com/trolls.html
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.

Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm


I think TH has an excellent point about jihad. Hocus has this issue with intercst at TMF, an nonexistent swr tool, and some "great debate" that seems to exist only for him. I am a moderate on the hocus issue but I anticipate his return here to cause a decline in the quality of the board and a loss of members who are more unhappy than I. Thus I am looking for alternatives.

There is this issue of the "good hocus" posts back on TMF but I was never overly impressed with them. I would be interested if someone was willing to point out any important hocus insight.
Have fun.

Ataloss

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Post by wanderer » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:00 am

I'm not sure what was censored in my post on the other thread. Is it really true that we can't simply call statements like 'wanderer you would do the community a service by thanking me' or 'the future is different from the past but it is the same as the past' and 'bensolar, little h's and little whatevers are game playing' idiocy. That seems like idiocy to me.

Maybe ES will ask himself why a relatively inoffensive guy like kenm thinks hocus' 'insights' suck.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:07 am

Greetings wanderer :)
Maybe ES will ask himself why a relatively inoffensive guy like kenm thinks hocus' 'insights' suck.

That's his opinion, fine. There are others who feel just the opposite, fine. I have opinions too although I can't always express them here, fine. It's easy to dig up the past. It's much more commendable to build for the future. Just my opinion of course. :wink:
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ataloss
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Post by ataloss » Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:12 pm

ES, speaking of digging up the past have you noticed the number of references to intercst in hocuses posts at the "research" board? LOL

Also amusing to see a list of greatest hits of "good hocus" posts from tmf mostly dating from before the great debate jihad
Have fun.

Ataloss

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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo » Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:41 pm

Greetings ataloss :)
speaking of digging up the past have you noticed the number of references to

I guess that goes for everyone old buddy. :wink:
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Post by hocus2004 » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:48 am

"speaking of digging up the past, have you noticed the number of references to intercst in hocuses posts at the "research" board? "

Post Archives serve a purpose.

One of the criticisms you often hear of the new discussion-board communications medium is that the information presented is unreliable. The argument is that you cannot trust what you read on a board because anyone can write anything without first establishing that they are qualified to offer comments on the subject matter being addressed, as they would be if they were trying to teach a class or write a book or give a speech.

That's all true enough. But it is a criticism that ignores the other side of the story. Barriers to entry are equally low for those who want to challenge comments put forward on a board. Intercst did not have to show that he possessed any special expertise in SWR research before blasting his "findings" re the historical data at the various communities. But then I didn't need to show that I possessed any special expertise in SWR research before putting forward my questions about his methodology either.

So I do not accept this often voiced criticism of the new medium as a discrediting of it. The low-barrier-to-entry need not be viewed as a negative aspect of the discussion board experience. Yes, you get people who do not know what they are talking about posting their viewpoints. That happens all the time. So what? If YOU know anything about the subject matter, you can assess for yourself whether the arguments being advanced possess creditbility or not.

This important system of checks and balanced has broken down in our discussions of the realities of SWRs.

We saw 90-plus community members endorse the idea of exploring the realities in the early days of the discussions. Then intercst put up a post declaring that the "board culture" of the Motley Fool board demands "ridicule" of anyone questioning his views. That post was an insult to the entire community. It never should have been allowed to stand. That post is the single most problemmatic post we have seen in the entire matter, even worse than the death threat post, in my view.

With that post, community members who had been looking forward to an exploration of the realities of SWRs began leaving the board. The fact that that post was allowed to stand told them what they needed to know about the future of the Motley Fool board. It was no longer a resource for people interested in sharing information on how to achieve financial independence early in life. It had become a "cult of personality," as one community member referred to it in later days. Learning was out. "Thank you, intercst!" posts were in.

The most discouraging thing about that post was what it told us about the damage that had been done to the board community's self-respect as result of its long-ongoing enabling of intercst's fantasy that he is not capable of ever getting anything wrong. It was the signals I had picked up earlier re the board's gradual loss of self-respect that had caused me finally to come forward with what I knew re SWRs in the first place, remember.

The way this worked is that I held back on sharing what I knew for my first three years at the board. I knew that intercst was not going to like the idea of having to admit that he made a mistake, and I was concerned that the reaction likely to ensue would cause great damage to the community. It was my witnessing of the playing out of the smear campaign against Wanderer that caused me to decide that the time had arrived to come forward.

I don't recall the precise difference of opinion between intercst and wanderer that prompted the smear campaign. I believe that it was a real estate issue of some sort, and that means that it was an issue in which the intercst SWR dogmas played a big role. Intercst has gone so far off the deep end with his SWR claims that he cannot permit in-depth and informed discussions of any alternative to investing most of one's money in stocks. Wanderer argued in favor of real estate, lots of community members expressed an interest in knowing more of Wanderer's thinking on the subject, so Wanderer had to go.

It's played out that way over and over again at that board. I noted yesterday that there is not one highly effective on-topic poster who posts there today. There's a sense in which that is not true. BenSolar posts there at times, and he is a highly effective on-topic poster. It's the same with FoolMeOnce. So why did I make this claim?

Because neither BenSolar nor FoolMeOnce can ever hope to gain any traction for the ideas they put forward there. There are lots of community members who appreciate their contributions. But intercst will never permit discussions rooted in ideas not in accord with his dogmas to go anywhere too significant.

What I was told a thousand times is "You can post whatever you want at the REHP board." It's true in a literal sense. You can indeed post whatever you want. But there is a reason why they call it a discussion board and not a posting board. Posting is only half of the experience for me. I want feedback from the community re my ideas. I want to take the ideas somewhere, to explore their ins and outs, to enhance the insights, to grow them, to test them, to explore them.

That sort of thing is out. Wanderer was driven off the board for trying to do that (the hoary old internet trick of having a group of regulars come forward and proclaim that he was obviously suffering from mental illness was employed in the smear against him just as it was employed in the smear against me) and I was driven off the board for doing that.

Other posters notice that sort of thing, of course. There are lots of smart and creative people in the Motley Fool community (or at least there once were). Give those people the freedom to post in an informed and honest way, and they will turn that board into the most exciting board on the face of Planet Internet.

But they are not going to do it now, not knowing the sort of price that those offering honest and informed on-topic comments at that board are made to pay. The price of getting these people to participate in an effective way is telling intercst to knock off the funny business. There is no other way.

We cannot permit one individual's personality quirks to destroy the entire Retire Early movement. That would be an insane thing to do. A lot of community members have strong positive feelings towards intercst. That's fine. If there are a good number who want him to stay, I believe that we can work out an arrangement in which he would be permitted to stay.

It's important, however, that we get about the business of working out this arrangement in the not too distant future. Each month that passes without us doing so makes it harder to put together something that permits intercst to stay. If you really want him to stay, please start doing the things that need to be done and saying the things that need to be said that will make that possible.

Personally, I do not care whether intercst stays or not. He has caused enough destruction at this point that I just don't care anymore. But I am a community guy through and through. There is a large segment of the community that very much wants him to stay, and I don't make it a practice of ignoring strongly felt community wishes.

I'm here to tell you that you are playing this thing wrong. We are at a place today in which I believe that it is still possible to work out a solution that would make just about everyone pretty darn happy. The window of opportunity is closing. I don't mean that it will be entirely closed by the end of this week or by the end of this month. But there is going to come a day when the window of opportunity to do this in the way that a lot of us would like to see it done is going to be closed on us for good.

Think it over.

Post accordingly.

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Post by ataloss » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:15 am

I guess that goes for everyone old buddy.


I notice you haven't tried to reason with hocus regarding dredging up the past. I know the reason of course- you can't reason with hocus. Hocus is essentially the anti-intercst. If intercst didn't exist hocus wouldn't. Hocus can't post on his own sub-board without going on at great length about the wrongs intercst has done to him. What his swr alternative is can't yet be revealed. Interestingly although developed in 19996 this did not cause him to break with intercst until May 2002.
Last edited by ataloss on Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Have fun.

Ataloss

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Post by hocus2004 » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:39 am

"I notice you haven't tried to reason with hocus regarding dredging up the past"

The past exists, ataloss. It is a reality. We need to find a way to cope with the realities.

I have not dredged up the past in any non-constructive ways. That would hurt the community that we have all built together. Never would I do such a thing. It is against my posting religion.

My preference would be to make vague references to the past, have everyone pick up on them, and see us go about the business of making the changes that we all know we need to make in the most diplomatic and charitable way in which these things can be accomplished.

I am one poster. I do not have control over the actions of other posters. If you and a few others will begin playing this in a constructive way, you will get a whole bunch of cooperation from me. Check the Post Archives if you don't know yet that that is what I am all about. I have a long record. All 2,500 of my posts send the same basic message. I am what I am, and there was no personality change that took place on May 13, 2002.

I love these communities. I will work my fingers to the bone doing what needs to be done taking these communities to a better place than the place they now find themselves in. I possess zero interest in retribution for what happened over the first 25 months.

You face a choice today. You can give me a little something to work with. Or you can continue to play games.

Games are dangerous. That's one of the lessons we should have learned from all this by now.

Stop the games.

Do it today.

You go first, and you will rise to Giant status in the minds of a good number of community members.

We can't change the past. We can change the future. It all depends on what we do starting--

NOW!

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